472: Anthony Hanson Washed Burgundy's Dirty Laundry

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll drink to that where we get behind the scenes of the beverage business.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Levi Dalton.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Erin Scala.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's our show today.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Anthony Hanson, a wine consultant for Haynes, Hanson and Clark and also the fine wine experience

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in Hong Kong.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello sir, how are you?

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very well.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very nice to see you.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's great to be here.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So your childhood was in Nottinghamshire and you were born after the Second World War?

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I was born in 1945 so just as the war was finishing, after the war Great Britain was

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: much impoverished and there was food rationing until I think 1954.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when sugar rationing stopped and my mother said, I'm going to go out

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and buy 20 pounds because there were no kilos at the time in England of sugar.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, that wasn't the point.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think it wasn't rationed anymore.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: There was no point buying 20 kilos because you could buy it as easy as possible.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But you couldn't really get sweets.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The privations were sort of the small luxuries but they didn't really impinge on me because

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess my parents were a sort of filter between me and that.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There had been obviously bomb damage in the major cities like London or Coventry

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or Birmingham.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: In the countryside there hadn't been so much of that but it was quite a difficult

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: time for my parents to bring up my two elder brothers.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Both of your brothers were fairly older than you so they'd been born before the war?

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I had one brother who was 10 years older than me and another who was 7 years

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: older.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They would have had the experience of being children during the war which must

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: have been quite difficult.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: My father wasn't actually on active service because he'd been born in 1900

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so he was in something called the Royal Observer Corps which was keeping

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: an eye out for German bombers arriving across the North Sea and there were

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: many posts up and down the coast to check whether there were bombers coming in.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Your father by trade was a brewer who had an interest in a beer company?

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was a family independent brewery based in Nottinghamshire but

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: delivering to Yorkshire to Leicestershire in the Midlands and there was a lot

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: of mining at the time, coal mining so there was a strong demand for beer

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: from the physical labour of getting the coal out of the ground

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was a family business.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a combination of two brewery companies that had merged in about 1880s

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and he ended up being managing director of chairman of this merged business.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Both of your brothers went into the brewing firm but they sort of told you

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: not enough room for three.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds absolutely right.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: My parents were determined that the two eldest sons would do that

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and they said to me, there's no room for you because your brothers

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: are going to follow your father into the family business.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't own the whole of it.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He owned something like one eleventh of half of it,

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but he ran it like a sort of personal fiefdom and he was at the time

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: in the fifties you were able to say, well, I'd like my children to come

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: into the business, which is what happened.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was absolutely the lucky one because my parents said to me,

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't do that.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to have to work out what you'd like to do.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I wanted to travel.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So for some reason I'd read one or two books about wine when I was 16 or 17.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I wanted to get a language if possible and French

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: seemed to be the answer.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And the idea sort of germinated that trying to go into the wine trade

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: would be a combination of being able to travel,

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: doing something really interesting because wine sounded like a fascinating

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: area in which to earn my living and I wanted to go to France.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So my parents supported me in this.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody in my family had ever been to university.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore when I said to my parents,

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'd like to go and live in France at the age of 18

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and try and work in the wine business.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They were very supportive and helped me to fund that initially

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when I wasn't earning anything.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I got jobs as interns or stagiaire first in Bordeaux and then in Champagne

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and then in Burgundy. So it started from that.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: At least in the States, I feel like a lot of times people get into wine

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: as sort of something that's opposite from their own life.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you did too because you got into wine

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you went to France.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was very different than countryside England.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a different trade than your parents.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was still the drinks industry.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were like, oh, well, you know, we made our career in the drinks industry.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So can you.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So it allowed you both of these things to both get away from your family

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and they could be supportive because it was somewhat in the same umbrella.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're absolutely right.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They could identify with what I was trying to do.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it was an escape really.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I had been in boarding schools from the age of eight onwards up until the age of 17

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and going to France and then finding I could talk in a different language.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It meant that I started talking to people in a completely different way

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and saying things in another language, which I would never have been able to say

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: or dared to say in my own language and was discovering a completely

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: different country and a completely different culture.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're really talking about the 1960s now.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I first came to France in 1963.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Before I started working in Bordeaux and Champagne,

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd done four months of doing a diploma at Grenoble University.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: During November 1963, because I knew I was trying to get into the wine trade,

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard about the hospice to bone wine auction.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hitchhiked from Grenoble to attend the hospice auction.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I was aged 18.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It was quite a journey.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being dropped at the outskirts of Lyon,

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: which of course is sort of more or less halfway between Grenoble and Bonne

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't get anybody to stop.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I was on the main road which runs around Lyon, the out of Boulevard, if you like.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually something stopped, came to a halt.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I explained that I was trying to get from the road coming in

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: from the east up to the northern exit from Lyon.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, get on board, said this driver.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, it was a bulldozer.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And the only thing which would stop was this bulldozer.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I climbed up.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There was only one seat because you only had one driver and a bulldozer at the time.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was standing in the sort of tipper at the front of the bulldozer

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: as I went around the outskirts of Lyon.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He then dropped me off because he was going off somewhere else.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then later another car picked me up and started taking me north again.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But my first arrival in Bonne was thanks to a bulldozer taking me around Lyon.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: When I got to Bonne, I went straight to the hospice to taste the wine,

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: went round, of course, talking to the growers behind their barrels

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because everybody's pouring their own wine.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And one guy said to me, well, why are you here?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I explained how I'd hitchhiked and I'd come to Bonne for the weekend.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, where are you staying?

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I said, well, I don't know.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: After the tasting, I go and find myself a hotel.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So he said, well, you won't all the hotels are full.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: There's absolutely no chance you better come and stay with me.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It was I'm still moved by that because in fact, he took me back to his home

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: just off the Plasmadalene very near to central Bonne.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And his wife said, well, look, this is where you're going to sleep.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And just behind the kitchen was a sort of pantry with lots of shells around the walls

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: on which there were glass bottles containing the preserved carrots

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and artichokes and the peas and the beans that they'd prepared during the summer.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So I slept on a quite a narrow single bed underneath the shelves in this

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of pantry behind the kitchen.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, you must come and you must join us for lunch

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: on the Sunday before the sale.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I joined them for their lunch, which was the most extraordinary meal.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It had about at least nine or 10 courses.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Then, of course, there was a cheese course and there was certainly at least one or two puddings.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was Sunday lunch.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The extent of the warmth of the hospitality, the openness of this family

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in Bogeyne that I would never met me before and this extraordinary meal,

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: which I certainly never experienced in my 18 years living in England,

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: this extraordinary banquet.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I still know them.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I stayed in touch with the wife who still lives in the same house off the Plasmadelen

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and her husband.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: His name was Pierre Dumex, and it turned out he worked in the hospice cellars.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why he was pouring the wine from the barrels

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: because he was part of the hospice team.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't actually a vineyard.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He died, but his widow, she's was still in the same house.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So you did sort of a loop between Brigandie Bordeaux and Champagne

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: at this stage in your career?

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: After Brigandie Bordeaux, I went to Bordeaux and got a job

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with a firm on the Clé des Chartres called Chaudot & Chilère.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I got another job with another merchant in Bordeaux called Louis Achenard.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I was a stagia working in the shea.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: What I was involved in doing there was helping to rack the wines from one barrel

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to another to leave the leaves behind so that you could put it into a clean barrel.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Or preparing wines for dispatch to different countries in barrel.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Because at the time, a lot of wine was sent off to England,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: to Belgium, to Holland, to Northern France and bottled where it was received.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this was a big eye-opening moment for you

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: because you saw how the bottles were actually made.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely right.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being quite shocked on one occasion.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The first time I arrived in the cellar,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I was sent off to join a group of there was an older man and a younger man

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: whose job it was to go into the cellar to do the racking.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we this pair took me off to a dark end of one of these shea's

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they sat down and said, well, it's time for breakfast.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Out of their pockets, they got some bread and a knife and some rosette,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: some saucisson and another one got a bird out of his pocket

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and started to pluck a partridge which he'd shot the day before.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So we didn't get down to work straight away.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We got on the serious business of food.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we did start doing some work.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I do remember well was we were preparing

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a dispatch which was due to go to either Belgium or Holland

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of some half bottles that I think it was Santis Steff

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and we were drawing the wine off bigger barrels to make.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was six half barrels of this Santis Steff.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: When we'd filled up five barrels, we sort of ran out of wine.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: This was obviously a problem because we had to create six.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So they used the wine which was used for topping up

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to make up the half barrel which was missing,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which immediately as a young naive person, I thought, well, hold on a minute.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There are five genuine half barrels of Santis Steff

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and one which is nothing like it at all.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a topping up wine which doesn't remotely taste.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably a Bordeaux Rouge.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I sort of said, are you sure this is OK?

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this happens all the time.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They said anyway, so we carried on.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was an early example of being exposed to how easy it is

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to mix liquids together because there wasn't enough to complete the order.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Really, through the period of the 70s,

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you started to take it as your test to write a book about Burgundy.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I met my wife in the late 60s and we married in 1968

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and we went to Burgundy and we then moved to Bone.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I got a job with a firm in Bone called Bouchard-en-Ephys

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: who were looking for somebody who spoke English

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to help respect foreign markets

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: where they didn't have any importers.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And after a bit, I realised that some of the most interesting wines

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I was tasting in restaurants or whatever were, in fact, bottled by the domains,

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: not bottled by the famous merchants necessarily in Bone or Nuisse-en-George.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So I started going to visit the growers in the different villages.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, up in Gervier-chemeter,

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Armon Russo was bottling a lot of his wines

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Henri Gouges in Nuisse-en-George, Marquis d'Angeville in Volnais,

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the Ramonnet family in Chassain-Mauraché.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: These are all estates who were the pioneers of domain bottling.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And indeed, American buyers had linked in with these domains

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 30s before the Second World War,

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: well ahead of what the British were doing.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: The British were happy to be dealing with the big negotiations

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in Bone and Nuisse-en-George and shipping generic blends very often,

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: which were bottled in London, sometimes with labels

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: which had famous Burgundy village names on them.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But they weren't necessarily 100% from these villages.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So here I saw that there was a link to be made

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: with what I'd first spotted in Bordeaux really,

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because at the time in the 50s and the 60s and the early 70s,

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of Burgundy was made by peasant farmers

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: who were good at cultivating their vineyards,

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but they did not necessarily have wineries

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: which were well equipped with vats or clean barrels.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They certainly didn't have systems for controlling the temperature

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of the fermenting must.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And this meant that a lot of wine was made,

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: which perhaps had faults, might have high volatile acidity,

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: was on its way to being vinegary.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: These wines had come from genuinely from vineyards in Vain-Romanais

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: or Nuisse-en-George or Pommar or whatever it may be,

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but they might not have been perfect.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The wines would be picked up by the local negotiants

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: who then would blend them with other wines

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: which were perhaps better quality from these individual villages.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But then they might have to or they did believe

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that they had to clean them up

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and to get rid of any aromas or flavours

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: which might reflect the fact

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that they hadn't been made in perfect conditions,

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but also as they were often made from vineyards

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which had perhaps been producing big crops,

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: they were lacking in fruit or lacking in colour

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and at the time a lot of quote, unquote improvement happened

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: with wines from the south of France or from North Africa

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: because Algeria was still part of France at the time.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a big business between Algeria and France

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where improving wines, Grenache grown in North Africa

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: would be brought in deep in colour, high in alcohol

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and would be blended with wines

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: which were thin or lacking in structure.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: A 10% or 15% of wine from North Africa

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: would give a colour and an alcoholic backbone

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and some body.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And this was the real aha moment for you.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You realised that this had happened or was going on

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: because of your experience in Bordeaux

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and you realised that a domain was bottling their vineyards

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was what was getting into the bottle

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and you were less aware of this previously

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because it wasn't such a big thing in the UK market.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a different kind of market

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and it had been more accustomed to these

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiating out bottlings

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and so because you were there on the ground,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you saw this ahead of time

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and when you originally wrote this in your book

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it became a little bit of a thing.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's absolutely right.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I was going to taste out these domains

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and tasting out of the barrels

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: meeting the people who were actually making the wine,

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I fell in love with Burgundy straight out of its barrel

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: when it was 100% Pinot Noir

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and coming from a village like Montressandanie

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or Chambord-Mousigny

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you'd taste it out of the barrel when it's young

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and as I'm sure you know

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Young Burgundy doesn't have very high tannins

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: contrary to what happens in Bordeaux

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you can taste and appreciate these wines

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: when they're youthful

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they have these amazing lovely red fruit,

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: black fruit, Pinot Noir aromas

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and fruitiness and a texture and a silkiness

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: on the palate which means that you can understand them

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can appreciate them when they're youthful

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Young Burgundy can be absolutely lovely

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: even though it's also sometimes going to make

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: great old bottles

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: if it's got the structure and the tannins.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So having as it were fallen in love with authentic Burgundy

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: at the domain level

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I realised what a lot of mediocre wine

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: was actually being shipped to the UK

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and to some other countries as well

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because Belgium and Holland were also doing the same sort of thing

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in Germany as well

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of improved wine was being shipped

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to lots of export markets at the time

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and many English people had no idea

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: what real Burgundy tasted like

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because they had been exposed to something else

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: by the trade on both sides of the channel

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and the British were just at much at fault as the French

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: both sides were making good money from this

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and they could justify their existence

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and believe they were doing something really good

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because the merchant would say

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: well look, what I'm delivering you is much better

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: than what the growers made

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: which it was true at the time

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because many faulty wines were being made at the time

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so an improvement in quality was happening

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but not enough good wine was being made at the domain

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So during the 70s and the 80s

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: what we've seen at late 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: we've seen a complete change of gear

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: by many, many Burgundy growers

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: who used to have to sell these not very good

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhat thin lacking in colour wines

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to the local trade at low prices

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because they couldn't come on high prices for the wines

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because they needed arranging

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: they needed controlling

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and they needed improving

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: this changed as growers became unsatisfied

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with having to sell their wines for not very high prices

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: being at the mercy of merchants who could control the prices

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: they were of course at the mercy of the weather

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: as one always is if you're a grower

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but so more and more people began in the 60s and the 70s

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and the early 80s

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to invest in improving their facilities

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: improving their wineries

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: equipping themselves with temperature control systems

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: which allowed them to either cool the must or to warm it

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and allowed them to make wines which could stand alone

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: which did not need improving

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and if they could stand alone many growers said

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of just bottling 10 or 20 or 30% of my production

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to see if I can't move to bottling 40% of my production

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and next year I'll bottle at 60%

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they needed to sell some in barrel to local traders

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because they needed cash flow

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and then as the years go by

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they'll be able to afford to keep back the better wines

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and won't have to get cash flow in by selling them in bulk

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You were really fascinated by this topic of domain burgundy

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: at the time when it really started to become more and more present

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: they were becoming more and more domain bottled burgundies

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and you were witnessing this change

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of something that you were interested in

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and then the difference between say you and a lot of people

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is you wrote a book

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: quite rapidly I realized that there was no information

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: about these domain bottling properties

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: so I would take notes

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: one domain in one village would recommend that I go to another

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: domain to meet their friend in the next door village or whatever

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: by the time I'd finished living in burgundy

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd visited something like 180 domains

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and made notes about them

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and I knew that there was a wine series at the time

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: published by Faber and Faber

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and it already had a very good book on Bordeaux

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: written by David Peppercorn

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it had a great book on Sherry written by Julian Jeffs

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: who was actually the editor of the whole series

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but it didn't have a book on burgundy

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so I thought well I've written a book pretty much

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: so I took it to them

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and delivered what was a lot of new research really

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: about these 180 or 200 domains to Julian Jeffs

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and he took it away and read it

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we had a meeting

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and he said well look what you've done is something original

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it hasn't been done by anybody else

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's not a book

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: take this away

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: so he gave me all my sheets back

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and he said now you've got to go off and write the book

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because I need a chapter about the history of burgundy

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I need about the winemaking

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I need something about the viticulture of the vineyards

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I need something about the appellations

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: so my heart sank

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because there were lots of other books

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about the history of burgundy and whatever

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and that had already been done

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: so it seemed to me I was being asked to do something

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which existed in the published world already

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but I ended up having to accept what he said

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so I took it away

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I was working full-time in the wine business at the time

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so it was quite difficult to find the time

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to do the extra chapters

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and it took me the best part of 10 years

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for me to do a chapter a year

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because I had to learn something about geology

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which I'd never studied at school

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so I had to read around the subject

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and then go back to burgundy

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to try and understand the rock formations etc

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually I went back and said

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: look okay we're here you're eight extra chapters

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and he said well this is absolutely fine

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but the stuff you've written about the growers

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is now completely out of date

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: because you did that 10 years ago

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: go away and now update what you did

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: so of course I then had to rewrite

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the stuff about the growers

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so the book finally came out in 1982

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: greatly indebted to my wife

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and many other people who encouraged me

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to finish it

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: because I almost gave up on it many times

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but luckily it didn't get finished

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: There were several key topics

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that were coming up at this time

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: so as we move out of the 70s

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and into the 80s when the book was published

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: some of those key topics were

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the fact that there was a lot of herbicides

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and fertilizers being used

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was changing the soil

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the fact that clones had been introduced

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: so the vine material was different

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: there had been a lot of replanting

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: around this time

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and so there was a lot of young vines

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in the region

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and in some areas more than others

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and the fact that there was a rise

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in what we might think of as analogous

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and the as far as I read you

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Anthony Hansen method

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is to look where the myth

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and the history meets the reality of today

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and then put that on the page

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and you sort of do that for each of those topics

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It became evident I guess in the 60s

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that people were sometimes

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: planting pine arnoirs and chardonnays

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: which were not necessarily producing

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: what they wanted

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: also there was disease

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in the vineyards

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: there were many virus damaged vines

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and you could look at the vineyards

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and see there was a whole circle

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: of yellow leaves

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: cornrowae or leaf row problems

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so they were trying to identify vines

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which were going to be resistant

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to these various diseases

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a national research program

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: was put into place to try to identify

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: clones which were going to be resistant

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to the viruses

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and also which would produce

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a sufficient alcohol

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: good balance of acidity

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a long process

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because you have to identify a vine

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: which is in good health

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and which is giving the sort of grapes

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that you want

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you then have to check

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it is free of disease

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and you then have to multiply it

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you have to multiply it again

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to produce enough wood

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to sell it to people to plant

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you have to wait

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: three or four years

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: before it starts yielding

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's at least a 12 or 15

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or 20 year process

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: before having identified

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: a good mother vine

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you end up having grapes from it

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and wine from it

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the first clonal selections

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: had tended to identify

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: quite high producing penos

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which were virus free

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but often the wine

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: which came from their grapes

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: was lacking in the structure

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and the fruit and the density

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the intensity

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the length of flavour

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that people were looking for

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so it needed a second generation

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of clonal selection

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and a third generation

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: of clonal selection

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: after the Second World War

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of course all the armaments factories

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: they didn't have anything else to do

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so those armaments factories

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: were moved over

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to making fertilisers

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: from the ingredients

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: which had gone into making armaments

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and there was a large amount

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of chemical fertilisers available

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the salesman would go around

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: explaining to the growers

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that they ought to be fertilising their vines

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: because the grower had pruned

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and taken away the wood

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the grower had then gone in

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and harvested the bunches of grapes

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and taken them away

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and the case was made

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that your vine having given you

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: this fruit

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and you having taken the

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: branches away from it

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you should give back

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you should give it back some fertilizer

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to feed it

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and thank it for

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: what it gave you during the harvest

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it gives you your livelihood

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: so of course many growers thought

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: well yes I should

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that they bought the fertilisers

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: they put them on

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and in excess of potassium

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and nitrogen fertilisers

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: resulted in the soils becoming

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: unbalanced

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and many wines being produced

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: with lower acidities

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but it took a long time

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: for people to realise

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that this was happening

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and at the same time

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: people didn't know how to

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: combat grey rot

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a lot of

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: grey rot problems

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 60s and the 70s

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the harvest of 67s

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: 68

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: where there was a terrific amount of grey rot

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the hospice to bear an auction

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: was cancelled in 1968

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because the grapes were so unhealthy

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that they couldn't put the wine on the market

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and people thought that

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: they could treat with chemicals

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: against grey rot

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: which it never worked

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or else they thought

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: well there's nothing I can do

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to prevent grey rot

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: if the weather's been bad

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just before the harvest

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and my grapes have gone rotten

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll pick them

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll put them in the vat

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll just hope that it's going to turn out all right

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so vats were filled with

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: bunches of grapes

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: which were riddled with grey rot

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: so of course the resulting wine

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: ended up smelling of mould

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and rot

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and then it had to be sold to a negocion

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: who would clean it up

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: by filtration or by whatever method

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and improve it

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: by adding something from outside the region

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so it was

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it was another contribution

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to what we were talking about earlier

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so over the 60s and the 70s

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: people realised that

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: grey rot couldn't be treated with spraying

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the way to resolve it

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: was to sort the bunches

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: it became the solution

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: was changing the soil pH

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that they were adding all these chemicals

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yes

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and so that's something that's become very

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: known now

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that because the soil pH was changing

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that the wines were showing less acidity

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's surprising that

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: at least to me on rereading your book

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that you had mentioned this quite a long time ago

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: as an emerging problem

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and in fact it became one

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's right

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the first edition of my book came out in 1982

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: which was the

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the dawn of big changes

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: which were about to happen

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: there was an influential consultant

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who became active in the 80s

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: called Guy Akkad

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and he did a lot of analyses of soils

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: he worked with people like

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Etienne Griveau in Von Romene

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was a very beneficial

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: moment of identifying

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: what minor elements might be missing in the soil

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and also how the pH had been changed by this

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: additions of fertilisers

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and several people worked with him

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: he also however

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: had a winemaking system which

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: depended on

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: big additions of sulphur dioxide

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and also

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: which was beneficial

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: he recommended to many people

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that they should buy systems

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: for being able to control the temperature

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: either to lower the temperature

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so you could get

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: pre-fermentation cold soaking

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or in

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: vintages which was lots of hot weather

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you could cool the mussel

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it would not overheat

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and in the 85s

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: towards the end of the 80s

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: many people

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: were able to equip themselves with methods of

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: controlling the temperature during fermentation

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which had not been there before

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: he was a very important

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: analyser of the soils

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and many growers did depend on his soil analysis

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and it helped them wake up to the fact

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that they needed to stop putting on

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: many of the chemicals or the fertiliser

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: they had been doing before

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that was one of his most beneficial inputs

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: his work as a inelogical consultant

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: was less admired

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: he was taken on for instance by the Claude Attard

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: for a time

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but the Mommasar family who owned it then

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think only kept him on for 18 months

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or two years or so

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: because it didn't work

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and then his influence diminished

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because what he was recommending

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: owners of top vineyards to do

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: was not really appropriate for the top estates

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: had he concentrated his efforts on

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: improving the quality of

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Borgoyne Rouge's village level wines

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that would have been really very welcome at the time

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but sadly that didn't happen

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and he moved on from Burgundy

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and I guess the mid 90s I think

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a brief passage

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: where he was the sort of the fashionable

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: consultant inologist

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was influential but

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the influence didn't last

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: around the late 50s into the 60s and 70s

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you started to see lab analysis

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that could tell you things like

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: whether your mallet was complete

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and this held a lot of appeal

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to small producers especially

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: who needed this help

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and then large producers who could afford this help

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: but eventually there became this concern

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that this was homogenizing the wines

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that consulting inology and labs were

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: tending to make wines that tasted the same

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and so then people started to say

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: well I don't know if that's a good thing

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The analogical station in Bone

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure when it was established

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was probably established after Philoxera

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and that is still there

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and there was an influential director

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was first in Burgundy called Max Leglis

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: who had a system where he thought

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that the way to solve the problem

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: of Burgundy's lacking in color

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and lacking in fruit and structure

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: was to heat the grapes to a very high temperature

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and he tried to recommend to many people

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to do this

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but Burgundy is quite an independent bunch

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and not everybody went along with this

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: although it was the state analogical advice system

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and there were also independent inologists doing it

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Very few Burgundians have been influenced

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: by consultant inologists

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in the way that in Bordeaux you get

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: major people who have been very influential

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and then become international consultant inologists

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: traveling to many other countries

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: In Burgundy, yes there are laboratories

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and people can take their wines there

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and get the analyses done

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It can tell them whether the malaractic is finished

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and whether the sugars are done

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and whether other things are correct

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: People use these

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think the social networks

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of growers in their villages

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how they taste each other's wines

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They talk together

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and they compare

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is a very strong web

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which is one of the reasons why Burgundy is so interesting

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that the growers themselves

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: do not depend on outside consultants

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to tell them how to make their wine

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think you've got

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: not in the 80s and not today

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: a homogenization of the styles

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: due to the power of certain consultant inologists

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: which we do see in, for instance, Bordeaux

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: or in other areas

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because these are people who are very close to their soil

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're close to what is expected

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of their different villages

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, just as they were not influenced

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in Burgundy by the Robert Parker style

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of trying to go for, as we see it in Europe

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: deep colored wines with quite high extractions

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: big structures

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes a lot of influence of New Oak

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This did not impinge very greatly on Burgundy

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: There are 10 or 12 or 15 domains

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: who were influenced by that

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: but nothing like the influence that took place in Bordeaux

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Burgundians remained quite independent

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and quite resistant to outside influences

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: What was the reception to the book in 1982?

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Some Burgundians felt that

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't have talked about the region

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: as openly as I did

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: as it were washing the dirty linen in public

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: which is what you could say

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I was talking about the problems of the need for blending

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in the past and what had been the history of it

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Many people didn't want that spoken about

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or certainly not written about

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, there were other people

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: who welcomed the arrival of the book very much

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't the first person to be writing about individual domains

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Alexis Lachine in his book The Wines of France

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: which I think were published in the early 60s or the late 50s

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And Schoenmaker I think had written his Encyclopedia

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: which covered domains as well

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: There were people who had written about the growers

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but nobody had done one which covered quite such a big range of them

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore that was very welcome

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We had over 200 growers described in detail

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as describing the negotiers

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: who had been the powerful movers of commerce in Burgundy

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They are also described in the book

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So people were suddenly able to see all the colours of Burgundy

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And many people did talk to me about how they would come to Burgundy with the book

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but they'd put it under the driver's seat

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because they didn't want to leave it in full view

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because they knew that some Burgundians didn't welcome it

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was useful

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: By the end of the 1980s, it was obvious that I needed to update it

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: because things had changed a lot

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were changing

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore what had been a bit of a revelatory book

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: describing the slightly murky past of parts of the Burgundy trade

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and also describing an awakening change

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: in how the wines were being bottled, made, etc

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: By the time we got to the late 80s

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: there were many more people doing domain bottling

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and one needed to expand the book

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and also talk about how things were going forward in a very positive manner

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So in 1995 you revised the book

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and you republished it

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: again called Burgundy by Anthony Hansen

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but you took out some of the things that had changed

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: in the meantime one of them would have been sorting, right?

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's absolutely right

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I started researching an update of the book

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in about 1991 or 1992

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and eventually this second edition came out in 1995

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and by that stage

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the key domain who I think was

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the first to introduce a sorting table was the DRC

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with Domender Laramone Conti

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that they've now had I think three or four different types of sorting tables

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: so they're constantly improving this

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and many people realised that eliminating rotten or unripe or damaged grapes

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and leaving them in the vineyard

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and then sorting tables were often bought and installed in the wineries

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: so that groups of sorters could stand on either side of this moving carpet

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and eliminate what was unripe or what was rotten

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: or what was damaged

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so that only healthy grapes could go into the vats

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and this did allow the production of clean wines

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: which were mould-free

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: which had not been the case in the 60s and the 70s

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time we started to see the development of some more vine age

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so in that 13 year window

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we see some vines getting older

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: so one of the first concerns that you had in the 82 book was

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: look there's a lot of young vines here

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and then that starts to get older

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but at the same time

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a real realisation that clones can be problematic

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's absolutely right

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The replanting after the world war meant that there were more mature vines coming along

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and also a second generation of clones were coming on stream

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or else some domains were beginning to select their best vines in their own

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: domains and produce massile selection

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so that they weren't dependent on the national selections

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they could identify virus-free healthy vines of peanuts

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: producing small bunches with thick skins

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore what was being replanted

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: was often a much higher quality than what had been planted in the 50s and the 60s

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and indeed because of the quality of some of these peanuts

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you can start incorporating the wine from these bunches

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: into a blend or indeed selling it

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: when the vines are much younger

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: when the vines are sometimes five or six or seven years old

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: well that wouldn't have been the case with high producing

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: straight-grown peanuts for instance

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: which are easy to cultivate because the shoots grew straight up

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: so you'd have to wait for the vines to be 12 or 15 or 20 years old

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: before they were giving wine a sufficient concentration

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the threads that runs through both books is the conversation about capitalisation

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and you actually point out that this dates back to the Abbey of Cetoh

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a long-standing practice

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but your objection to it in the book in 95 is that sometimes it's overused

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and this has resulted in the past in some wines that were less compelling

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely right

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: If we remember that in the 50s and the 60s

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: there were often some quite high-yielding peanuts

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and these were producing wines with lots of volume

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but the alcoholic degrees were perhaps quite low

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when the grapes would pick

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the grapes would give maybe 10.2 or 10.6 worth of alcohol

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and that is below the legal permitted minimum yield

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to make a volleys or to make a pommar or whatever

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore it was permitted that growers could add

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the equivalent of two alcoholic degrees worth of sugar

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_01]: so to take a 10.3 up to 12.3 which was suddenly above the 12 degrees

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: which might have been the minimum limit

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Now that was fine but in fact it wasn't always controlled in the wineries

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes you would get somebody picking grapes

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: where the grapes were giving 9.8 or 10.1

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and then adding the equivalent of three degrees worth of sugar

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because there was nobody actually standing behind their vats to count the sugar bags

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: so a wine which is 30 degrees of alcohol

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which actually was picked when it was less than 10

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: is dominated by the alcohol

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not impressed by the fruit intensity or by the aromas

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore in the 60s and the 70s

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there were often over-saptolized wines

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: basically they had the alcohol level

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but that had come from the sugar bags

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and it hadn't come from the concentration from well-ripened grapes

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 82 book particularly I was talking about that as a problem

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: by the 95 update it was becoming less of a problem

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and today because of global warming

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and because of climate change

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the springs in Burgundy are much earlier than they used to be

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and the harvests are earlier

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: this allows a summer to produce more natural sugars

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore we get higher levels of sugars

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: being produced in the grapes than ever was the case before

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and there are many vintages where no capitalization is necessary today

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and none takes place

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02]: so one of the people that you mentioned in that capitalization conversation

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: is uber de monti

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and the point that you make is that

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: somewhat by accident he had not added sugar

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and then found a wine to be really good as a result

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and so then he was a sort of apostle or a prostitulatizer

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: of not capitalizing in the 80s

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: which was kind of contrary to what the normal thought was

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that's absolutely right

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: he'd discovered that one of his wines

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the one which where he'd misjudged the amount of sugar

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: who he added he'd put in less than he intended

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but that particular cuve came out to be so perfumed

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and so delicate and good fruit intensity

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: lovely length and it also aged very well

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and because he was a greatly admired figure

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and many people tasted with him

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and he tasted in other people's cellars as well

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: his influence spread wide from village to village

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was a guru for many people

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 60s and 70s and early 80s

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: he handed over to his son Etienne from the 1990s

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Vintage onwards but during the 70s and 80s

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: he was a great figure and he was very influential on me

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the wine which sort of almost turned me on

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to the beauty of great burgundy

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: was a 1966 Volné Taipier from de Monti

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was Becky Wasserman and her then husband

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: coming to dinner with my wife and I

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: when we were living in Boney in the late 60s

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: they arrived carrying a bottle of Volné Taipier

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: 1966 from de Monti

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it was completely delicious and we all went off

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and bought lots of bottles from him at the time

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it wasn't at all expensive then

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and we drank this wine as a young wine

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: when it was only two and a half or three years old

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: for several years

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was a proof it was an early example

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that you know young Volné

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: can be completely delicious

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and you don't have to keep it forever

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: When I've talked to a number of people

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: they've noted Uber de Monti

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: as somebody who is very concerned about

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the taste of the appellation of the crew

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: being in the glass

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and I can see how that would really appeal to you

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: as sort of a mentor figure

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, that's absolutely right

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and tasting around

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: he's selling with him

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: which I was lucky enough to do many times

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: one would taste the village level Volné

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: which wasn't hardly ever sold on export markets

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: then he would make a premier crew

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: which was a combination of two or three little vineyards

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: where he didn't have enough to have a whole vat

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you'd start tasting

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the Volné Champon and the Volné Taipier

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you'd taste the Poma Pézeroll

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you'd taste the Poma Rougien

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: there's always four great wines when I first knew it

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and the differences between them was extraordinary

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he managed to expand the domain by buying

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: some Volné Les Mittons

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: some Pouligny Moachel de Caillere

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: so suddenly there was a white wine as well there

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the other figures that was really important to you

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and then Wynor Burgundy was also in Volné

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was Jacques D'Andreville

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: The Dolgerville domain had been absolutely

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 1930s involved in the creation of the Appellation Contrôlée System

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and along with Henri Gouges in Duis Saint-Georges

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Jacques D'Andreville's father had been outraged

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: by the way his wines were sometimes blended

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: if he sold them in barrel to local négociants

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He took the négociants to court

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you've talked about this when you were interviewing Guillaume D'Andreville

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because his grandfather took the négociants to court

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the local négociants did no longer wish to buy from him in barrel

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore D'Andreville was forced to bottle the wines themselves

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that got him on the on the road of domain bottling

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's never looked back

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So Guillaume D'Andreville's father Jacques was also a very conscientious

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and careful winemaker who was operating also as a broker

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: bringing together wines from many domains for export to the States

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He was one of the Burgundy growers who was helping the growth of domain bottled

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: burgundies in the USA

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: That was something I hadn't realized until I spoke to you

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that he'd been sort of a scout for other domain burgundies

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that then made their way into the US market

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Doljeville was a person who Ramané and Rousseau would ring up and say

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: look I've got my thing ready and where do we group it and how do we do it

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And somebody else that made a big impact on you

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and your writing and your thought about Burgundy was Aubert Duvalin

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I was very lucky to meet Aubert

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It was Becky and Bart Wasserman who I think also had met him

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd met him because we happened to be on a similar course at the

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: analogical station in Bone but I hadn't got to know him at all well

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I was going to visit different growers

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and trying to learn about domain burgundy

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: quite often I would go to a domain at the end of the tasting

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The grower would say to me

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Est-ce que vous connaissez les Wassermannes qui habite Saint-Romain?

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know the Wasserman family who live in Saint-Romain

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: which is where they were at the time

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And after I'd heard this about three or four times

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought this is ridiculous

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to meet these people because my wife and I were English people

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: living in Bone and there weren't that many other foreigners around

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So I went to Saint-Romain to try and meet up with them

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and didn't know what address they were at

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so I went into the hotel L'Arrosche in Saint-Romain

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: asked is there an American couple living here?

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely just get down the road turn right

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the first house on the right

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I went down banged on the door

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and Becky Wasserman answered the door

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and said to me straight away she said

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you come for a bath?

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I said no

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Ah the hotel's always sending us people down here

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: for a shower or bath

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: because they don't have baths for all of the rooms

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a very basic hotel

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I said I've come because I keep hearing about you

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'd like to say hello

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Will you come and have dinner with us in Bone?

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So they did come

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and they brought this bottle of Volné Taipier in 1966

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I was talking about it

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: so it was the beginning of a great friendship

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: which goes back 50 years

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember the first moment

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: when Obère and Becky and I were around a bottle

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but by the time that they moved to Bouillon

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Obère had become a close friend

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think he was just finishing

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: working with the Maison Leroy

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the merchant business in Ossidiaurus

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because of course the Leroy family owns

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: 50% of Domain de la Romani Conte

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and when Obère came back to join the Burgundy wine trade

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: he did a stint as a stagiaire

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as an intern with Leroy

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to learn something about the merchant side

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: before he went to work full-time at the domain

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So he was somebody who had had experience

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Negocion world

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as being profoundly involved

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of course in the domain world

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: this person who was a part of the family

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: owning the Domain de la Romani Conte

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: so it did mean that at least once or twice a year

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I was able to go to the domain

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and taste down the range of wines

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or up the range of wines

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So being able to taste Echizou

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and Cance Echizou

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and the Riche-Bourg and La Tache

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and Romani Conte out of barrel

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: with Obère

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: was an extraordinary experience

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: which I suppose

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I was one of the luckiest people in the world

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to do that

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody else that I think you knew

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and learned a bit from

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: was Jacques Céci du Jaque

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely right

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Jacques had bought the Domain Gaillet

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in Maurice Antony

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in I suppose the early 60s

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: which was more or less the time

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was coming to Living Burgundy

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in the mid 60s

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the late 60s

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: when I first got married

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So he and his American wife Rose

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: were friends from then

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was somebody who traveled a lot

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: either going to California

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: or receiving wine makers

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: from Australia, from New Zealand

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to be part of his wine making team

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: vintage after vintage

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and these would sometimes

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: be the same people

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes they'd have fresh people in

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a very international

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: well-travelled Burgundy wine maker

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: who'd come from the outside

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was certainly a catalyst of change

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He loved tasting

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: in other people's domains

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was a very active person

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: involved in spreading the word

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: about how it's perfectly possible

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to make Domain Bottled Burgundy

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to come from being unheard of

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: his family had some very terrific contacts

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in the world of gastronomy

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He was making wines which

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: restaurants on top tables

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: three-star restaurants could buy

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and list without having to wait forever

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd seen what was happening at DRC

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: where very often whole bunches

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: were being used for the fermentation

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: because of that

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a pioneer in expanding

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the use of whole bunch fermentation

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: which of course brings complexities

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and perfumes and a special texture

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and a length of flavor to wines

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so long as people are using

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: fully ripened bunches

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Something else that changed

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: in between the publication

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: of the first edition

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and the second edition

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: is that Parker wrote a book on Burgundy

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and Matt Cramer wrote a book on Burgundy

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and those weren't present in the market

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: when he wrote that first book

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's absolutely right

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: In my book in 1982

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd done something which had never been done before

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: which was to produce a map of the Clau Rougeaux

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: which showed who owned what

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and where they were within the clough

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Matt Cramer

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have so many maps in his book

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but he did have a listing of

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who were the owners in the Grand Cruze

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: which was certainly interesting

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you wanted to track down something

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and you weren't quite sure where to get it from

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you had the name of the person

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: whose door you needed to bang on

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That book was very valuable

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: because it listed who were the holders

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in the different famous vineyards

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the pre-internet age

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and so a lot of these details

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: were scattered amongst records

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in city halls or in obscure books

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that may not have been translated into English

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: To produce the map of the Clau Rougeaux

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to go to the town hall

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: in Nuisse-George

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance, sit down

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and spent hours and hours and hours

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01]: going through the

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: commune records

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to see whose name was on this particular plot

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The Robert Parker book

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which came out in 1990

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: was a big thick book

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and there were some very good things in it

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: but also he was a bit muddled by

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: what was great burgundy

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and what was not great burgundy

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He confused some people

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_01]: who were still doing a lot of blending

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: with others who were making really genuine minds

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting that he never updated that book

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_01]: possibly because he realised his focus

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: was Bordeaux wines

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: was Napa Valley wines

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: was Chateau-Nouff-du-Pap

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was never completely comfortable

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in burgundy

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he took issue with

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the Favele company

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: alleging that the wines

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that they had shipped to the States

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01]: was not the same as what he'd been given

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to taste in Nuisse-Georgeaux

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: which François Favele

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: who's a very straightforward person

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: felt that this could not be allowed

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to pass without challenge

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so he challenged Parker on this

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and Parker had to retreat

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Many Burgundians had felt that

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Favele shouldn't do such a thing

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: because Parker was a very influential

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and powerful person

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: they shouldn't risk offending

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: a major journalist

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: but Favele did take Parker to court

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Parker had to retreat on this

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was perhaps one of the reasons why

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: he knew he wasn't absolutely at his ease in Burgundy

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and he never came back

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and updated that book

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and he subsequently quite quickly

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_01]: appointed different people

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to cover Burgundy for him

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the points you've made to me

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02]: at another time

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02]: is that it was the exit

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of Bordeaux merchants

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: from the Bordeaux market

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: following 2010, 2008, 2009

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: when there was a period of

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: economic decline in the States

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and then the rise of the Chinese market

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so then those merchants left the Bordeaux market

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and went into the Burgundy market

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and found it

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02]: more interesting than they maybe thought

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and then prices took off

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a big shame

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that in the 2009 and 2010 vintage

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it was at a moment when

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: mainland China and Hong Kong

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in a large way was beginning to

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: become thirsty for good wine

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and was drinking a lot more wine

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: than he ever did before

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and Bordeaux perceived Asia

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: as being somewhere where

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: if Europe or if America was no longer buying

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: they would be able to sell everything in Asia

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because the new demand of the enormous number of people

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in China would take on their wines

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and many people, the Shadows and the Negotiations

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: took advantage of that in 2009

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and particularly 2010

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to increase the prices enormously

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to ridiculous levels

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and the result was that

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01]: two or three years later

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it became obvious that prices had peaked

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and those people who had bought

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: at the very high prices

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of the second and third

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and fourth tranches

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of the 2010 vintage for instance

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: had got their fingers burnt

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and had lost a lot of money in it

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and they became disgusted

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: by what had been happening in Bordeaux

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and many people looked elsewhere

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: for you know if we don't want to

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: allow ourselves to have that happen again

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: by this stage

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because understanding of Burgundy

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: had got greater

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and also the quality of winemaking

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: had got much greater

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: many people who in the past had felt

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: oh Burgundy it's such a nightmare

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a holy grail trying to find

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Burgundy which is delicious and regular

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and whatever

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the pursuit of the holy grail

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and the pursuit of trying to avoid

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: being disappointed by Burgundy

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: this conversation these reflections

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: were diminishing

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: when we got into the new millennium

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_01]: because there was much more good Burgundy

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: around of regional level

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of village level

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of premier crew level etc

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: so by the time we get to

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of 2009 2010 2011

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: many people were coming to France

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01]: they weren't necessarily spending

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: much time in Bordeaux

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but they were looking where else

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: should we go

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and the answer is they were coming to Burgundy

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and discovering that there was

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: much more wine around

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of really beautiful quality

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and that the prices were high

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because Burgundy is rare

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: there's not very much of it made

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and the good wines are always high

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but once they discovered Pinoir

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in all its deliciousness

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: many people never look back

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and they they realize that

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Burgundy is an absolutely fascinating area

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can drink the wines when they're useful

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you can enjoy them as they're maturing

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and they turn into long living wines

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because Burgundy in the 50s or 60s

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't have a reputation for being long living

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it was thought of something

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to drink it early

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's not true

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a well-made Burgundy can last for 20, 30, 40 years

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: so there has been much greater demand

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: for Burgundy since around about 2009 2010

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and I started working for

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Christie's wine department in 2000

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and in 2004 2005

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we saw the opportunity of coming to Burgundy

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and trying to persuade the director of the hospice to bone

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and the mayor of bone

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to allow Christie's to run the hospice to bone auction

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: which had always been run by a local auctioneer

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was the barrels of wines

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: were sold immediately after harvest

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to the local negotiations

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and in order to participate in the sale

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you had to buy let's say eight barrels

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of this particular bone

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: it meant that as a private individual

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you wouldn't want to do that

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the sale was dominated by the local traders

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but it wasn't raising very much money

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because often the wines were not of great quality

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: there was no pressure to increase the quality of the wines

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: from the local negotiations

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because had they been pressurizing the hospice to bone

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to make the best possible wines in the world

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_01]: they'd have had to pay much more for them at auction

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in November after the harvest

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: than they wanted to pay

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: so there was always a situation where

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the harvest would happen

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody would know it would be a good harvest

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the hospice to bone auction was due to happen

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the third weekend of November

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: between the harvest and the hospice auction

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_01]: there would be very little talk about

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: whether the harvest was good or bad

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: because anybody who said it's a really great vintage

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: would find that this charity auction

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the prices would flame upwards

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and one of the things you point out in your book in 95

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: is that they were afraid of a knock on effect

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but then if a negotiation paid more at the hospice to bone

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and the prices went up

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: then the growers would charge more

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: for sending their grapes and finished wine too

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: than negotiate as well

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: so it would affect the whole region

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they were hesitant to have that happen

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: yes that's right

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the hospice to bone auction was sometimes a thermometer

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: or certainly a barometer

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_01]: showing what is the strength of demand at the time

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and what is the way the vintage is perceived

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: so the prices at the hospice

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: for years and years and years

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_01]: were a measure of the market

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore the negotiations of course

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted to make sure that

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: they didn't have to pay any more than they had to

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and you are actually fairly critical of the hospice to bone

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in a 95 book

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so in many ways the hospice to bone

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: has been a thread throughout your whole career

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because you went there for the tasting

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you stayed in bone

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you were somewhat critical of it

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: in the 95 book

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you were hired on to sell the wines later

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and so then you made some advisory comments to them

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: about how the wines could be improved

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: is that correct

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: yes I mean I think I was critical

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of the hospice in the 1982 version actually

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I updated the criticism in 1995

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because although some improvements had been made

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: there was still a lot which still needed to be done

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a tricky business

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because the winemaker has to produce wines

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: which can be tasted within six or seven weeks

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of the harvest

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and approximately 30 years ago I think

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_01]: an era took place where

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the new wines were put into barrels

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_01]: which had been used once or twice before

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of those barrels had been affected by volatile acidity

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: therefore there was a vinegary taint

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and something like 170 barrels

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: had to be withdrawn from the sale

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and sent for distillation

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: after that the hospice decided

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: we will buy new barrels every year

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's what they've done ever since

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and to some extent that is a good thing

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_01]: because people know that they're going to get

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_01]: freshly made wine in a fresh barrel

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and they can always rack it from that barrel

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and put it into an older barrel

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: when they've received it if they wish to

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but there are other of the lighter cuvés

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: which certainly do not benefit

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: from having been fermented 100% in new barrels

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: there are two cuvés of mercer for instance

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: which are not premier crew mercers

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and no grower in mercer would dream

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of putting their basic village level

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: in 100% new oak

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01]: they would perhaps use 20 or 30% of new oak

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the rest would be 1 year old or 2 year old barrels

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so I'm hopeful that over the coming years

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a new winemaker

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of course who took over 2 or 3 years ago

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Ludivine Griever who is extremely talented

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and she will I hope

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: find some ways of perhaps moving the hospice

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of its use of new oak over the coming years

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a complicated thing to manage

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And since you wrote that book

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and now there was a new facility

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: created for the winemaking of the hospice?

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was about 22 years ago or 23 years ago

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_01]: a completely new winemaking facility was made

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which is extremely clean and efficient

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: since Christie's took over running the sale in 2005

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we rapidly realised that some of the systems there

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_01]: did not work efficiently

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance the temperature control systems

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_01]: would sometimes go on the blink

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and in the middle of the night

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of that which should have been holding

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the temperature of the fermenting muster

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_01]: let's say 28 degrees

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01]: would suddenly explode

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and the following morning

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: it would be found that the vat had reached

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_01]: 38 degrees and the fermentation had stopped

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: so this requires investment

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: if you've got to change a system like that

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: if it's only 15 years old

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and now for one of the areas where Christie's

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_01]: made an input and I was involved in this

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_01]: was stating to the hospice

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: basically if the hospice wished us to achieve

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: really successful results at the sale

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and to increase the prices per barrel

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance when we took over the sale in 2005

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the Savigny Le Bones were selling

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_01]: for less than 2000 euros a barrel

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_01]: now that is below the cost price of the hospice

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_01]: making the wine and cultivating the vineyards

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: over a 12 month period

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were seriously considering letting out

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the Savigny vineyards

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or diminishing the number of wines made from them

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because they were losing money every time

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and our feeling about it was

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: they shouldn't go that route at all

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: they should hold on to the vineyards

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: they should increase the quality of the wine

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: being made

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and that we would communicate with consumers

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_01]: saying look here is absolutely delicious

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: wine from a lesser known village of the Cote de Bones

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and yes it's going to cost

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: three and a half or four thousand euros a barrel

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but actually it's wonderful value for money

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and the wine will be delicious

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: so you can achieve that

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: if you can improve the quality

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that's going into the barrel

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Roller Massa was the winemaker at the time

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and Antoine Jacquet who sadly no longer was with us

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: who was the director of the time

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: took this on board

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_01]: they also took on board that

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the sorting had to be more efficiently done

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: so that any gray rot affected grapes

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: should be left in the vineyards if possible

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and this happened with the 2007 vintage

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: 2006 had been badly affected by several cuvas

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_01]: which had mould aromas to them

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_01]: by 2007 the system had changed

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and the 2007 vintage was very clean

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and very delicious

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and it resulted in significant increases

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in the prices

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and from 2007 vintage onwards

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: actually the Christy's input started accelerating

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: diplomatically we had an influence

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: on what was happening

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: behind the scenes in terms of the winemaking

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: which when we first took the sale on

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the result of the sale was approximately

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: three and a half million euros

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_01]: last year it was over 12 million euros

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_02]: something that's interesting about your books

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: especially the 95 edition

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_02]: is how aware you are of

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Pinot Noir and Chardonnay being grown

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in other parts of the world

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you didn't hesitate to refer to

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_02]: where you saw some similarity

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: or some difference

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_02]: into the emerging Pinot Noir and Chardonnay

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_02]: in Australia, in California, New Zealand

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and other places

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it did bring a kind of global flavour to it

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you were talking about an old world wine region

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but with some awareness that things were changing

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: after the 1982 book came out

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I was invited quite often

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to be one of the judges at international shows

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly in Australia and in New Zealand

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and the Australians absolutely loved the 82 Burgundy book

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because they very much liked being able to have a dig at Europeans

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and here was a book which was sort of critical of

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the old school of winemaking

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and also the scales fell from many of their eyes

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because many of them had been buying Burgundy

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and been disappointed

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and suddenly they knew why

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the late 80s

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of course it was quite difficult for

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: people outside Burgundy to bring off

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: to make a success of making Pinot Noirs

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and often people talked about

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a holy grail and how do we do it

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and the answer was that initially in California for instance

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people were bringing

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Cabernet winemaking methods to bear

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: on the Pinot Noir grape

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and that wasn't very successful

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and also they were growing Pinot

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in the hotter areas

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't make a success of Pinot Noir

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: in North Africa

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or in the Central or Northern part of Napa Valley really

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: it's too hot for it isn't it

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it needs a cooler climate

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: so it can have a long growing season

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and people were discovering this really

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in Oregon, in California, in New Zealand, in Australia

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and because I was involved in judging

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I was often seeing Pinot's

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and seeing the different successes they were making

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And someone that you met probably during that time

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that became a bit of an influence on you

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and a friend was James Halliday

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's absolutely right

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Len Evans, James and Brian Crozier

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: were the three strongest judges at these Australian shows

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I was a terrifying prospect really

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: finding myself sitting next door of them

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because one would arrive in Australia

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: terribly jet lagged after 22 hours

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: worth of travel or whatever

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and within a day be catapulted into being a judge at this

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So if the Brit made some stupid mistake

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: or failed to pick up Brett on a wine

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: which the two Australian judges had spotted

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: then one felt like a complete worm

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and so James was a great teacher

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and I learned a lot from those Australian shows

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: actually it helped me raise my game completely

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of tasting, identifying faults

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: coming to a conclusion quite quickly

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: listening to other people

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the Australians had formed their palates on burgundies

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They knew exactly what the best wines of Burgundy were

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: they knew about the disappointing ones as well

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were trying to make Pinot's

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: which was going to be able to challenge

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and to be as delicious and good as what they could get in Burgundy

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and also sometimes better

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because of course there was lots of mediocre Burgundy around at the time

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so quite often some of these new world Pinot's

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: would turn out to be beautifully fruity and clean

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and fault-free

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and the wine could be put next door to a Burgundy

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: which was not exactly these things

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore the New World wine maker

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: was very pleased to find that

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: they were making a good success of it

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: When the 82 book was received

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: some people looked at US scans for airing the dirty laundry

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: How was the 95 book received?

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It was less controversial

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because although I told the same story

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: so people would know about the history of Burgundy

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it had been said before

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: by me and by other people by this stage

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was trying to broaden the book

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to make it a much more

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: A. There were many more growers being described in it

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and B. It brought up to date

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: are some parts of Burgundy

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: which hadn't been touched in the 82 version

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I described in some detail

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: biodynovism and what was happening in there

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and described my own

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: uncertainties about

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you know do I believe in this

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and how can it be possible that

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Pluto or Jupiter or Saturn

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: could influence what's going on in the grapes

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I can understand how the moon

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: can influence because it influences the tides

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and it influences our bodily fluids

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: therefore we can be influenced

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: by the gravitational pull of the moon

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not quite sure about these

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: distant planets

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I had the experience of tasting with

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the late Antloid LeFleur once

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: where she was in the process of turning

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the domain LeFleur over towards biodynovism

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: which didn't do it straight away

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: She did it initially on the Poulunis

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Prémi-Crues Clavoyant and the Bata Morachet

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I tasted once with her

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a traditionally cultivated Poulunis Clavoyant

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and a biodynamic Clavoyant

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and a traditional Bata

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and a biodynamically cultivated Bata

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and so the question was put was

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is there a difference between these two wines

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and if so

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: do you prefer one or the other

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and which do you think is which

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So I tasted carefully and was convinced

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that there was a difference between the two wines

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I did prefer one to the other

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I told her which one I preferred

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and in both cases I'd chosen

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the biodynamically cultivated wine

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was quite an eye-opener

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: One may not believe on the influence

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of Saturn and Jupiter

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but if actually what these people are doing

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in their vines

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: is having a difference

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and they are convinced that their vineyards are happier

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course one can see that the soil structure

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: is more vibrant and

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: biodynamism can bring quality and subtlety

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and finesse to wines

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which I can't explain but there we are

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really interesting to me that you were

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of the last major book on Burgundy

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: before the Premox area

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're published in 95

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and of course there's no mention of this

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and then if you were to publish that book today

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you would have to mention it

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I hadn't thought about that

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You're absolutely right

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to me that there are many factors that contribute to it

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and just recently I was tasting in Mercer

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: with Antoine Jobar

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of Domain François Jobar as it used to be

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: His take on Premox

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that Domain has suffered from it particularly

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but they've had one or two issues

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but his take on it was that

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: the scales fell from his eyes

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: when he and his father started uncorking

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: half bottles of all their different bottlings

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: When they were pouring from bottles

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes they would come across a problem

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure which vintage we were talking about

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but then when he would open the

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: half bottles

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: there was never a problem

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and you couldn't explain that

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because the corks were from the same suppliers

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he realized that actually

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: they changed their bottling machine

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: at a certain stage

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and they'd gone over to a more efficient faster bottling machine

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but that bottling machine couldn't take half bottles

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so the half bottles were always bottled by hand

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and these half bottles which were bottled very carefully by hand

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: never gave them any Premox problems

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas the big machine which was so sophisticated

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: they concluded

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: mixed more oxygen in with the wine

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: as it was going to the bottle

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and this must have been

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the reason

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'd never heard that as an explanation

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: for the problem before

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: because people talk about too much

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: lease rising

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or they talk about

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: diminishing the amount of sulfur

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: or they talk about the problems of corks

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and paraffin

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and peroxide

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and all this sort of thing

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: All of these things are different reasons

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: why other people explain Premox

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: different things of course Premox

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: with different domains and merchants

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: One can't simplify it down to

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: what it's not just to do

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: with the problems of the corks

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly sometimes it is

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean only just recently

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I took a case of Grand Cru

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: White Burgundy

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: back to a domain

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: just two or three months ago

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because some of the bottles

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: were obviously from looking at the color

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: were fine

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them were yellow

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was quite obvious

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that within these 12 bottles

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: there were four or five

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: which were faulty

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and seven which were okay

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well that's not good enough

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So we took the case back

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The grower said

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really sorry

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a case of 12 bottles of Grand Cru

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of a more recent vintage

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll swap it over

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and please apologise to the clown

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So that would have been a problem

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of cork, won't it?

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Because in that same case

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got five corks

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: which obviously have let

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's nothing to do with

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the bottling machine

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or the cell for level or whatever

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very complicated issue

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But many people

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: now seeming to resolve it

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: by moving on to DM

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or to capsule closures or whatever

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore we're moving on from that

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was a big shame

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that the Burgundians

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: could not get together

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to address the problem as a region

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It was left to individual domains

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to do it

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and some people

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: put their head in the sands

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like ostriches

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and said no no no

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never had any problems with this

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm certainly not going to

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: exchange your wine

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Others were extremely open

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and said look

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand what was going on

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but now I think I've made some changes

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course I want to make it

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: good to your clad

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're still living through it

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's a certain amount of Burgundians

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: saying it's not a problem anymore

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: we've resolved

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that was the past

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: we've resolved the problem

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They may have resolved it in their own cellars

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because they perhaps checked all their stock

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and uncorked and decanted anything

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: which was faulty

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but it doesn't mean that the problem's been resolved

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in consumers' cellars

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because at home

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: people have got bottles

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: of Premier Crew and Grand Crew Burgundian

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which they bought in good faith

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: having been told that

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: White Burgundian will mature

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and improve over a six, eight

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: or ten year period

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's only now

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're opening the Grand Crews

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and discovering that

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: on the contrary

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: something they paid a lot of money for

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: has prematurely oxidized

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So the problem is still with

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: merchants like us

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because we're talking to the consumer

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who's still sometimes unhappy

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes people make the point that

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: certain White Burgundy producers

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: are making a different kind of wine

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: these days

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: a wine that can be drunk younger

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because the consumer is actually looking to do this

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're worried about Primox

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're drinking the White wines younger

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't want to keep them in the cellar

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you were writing

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: at that pre-Primox era

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and so you would have seen

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the old school of White Burgundy

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and my question to you is

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: do you agree with that assessment?

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a significant amount of White Burgundy

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not made the same way

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that it was when you were writing these books?

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it's got to be right

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I was brought up by

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean one of the writers I read a lot

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: was Hugh Johnson

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and one of the differences that Hugh Johnson makes

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: between White Burgundy

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and Chardonnay's Grown Elsewhere

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: is that the White Burgundays

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: will and can mature with bottle age

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So in the 70s and the 80s

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: people were still definitely seeing that

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as the crux difference

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: between White Burgundy

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and New World Chardonnay

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the White Burgundays will improve with bottle age

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: actually

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: because of Premox

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: this hasn't become the case

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in spite of the Premox problems

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the demand for White Burgundy

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: remains extremely high

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and extremely strong

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: which is sort of rather

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to explain

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to justify

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but it can only be justified

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: by the fact that

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: many many people still find

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that White Burgundy

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you draw the cork and it's completely delicious

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and I've got to have another bottle tomorrow

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so there is a lot of really good

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and delicious White Burgundy around

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't agree with

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: some critics who would say that

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it's been a golden age for

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Red Burgundy

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but it has not been a golden age

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for White Burgundy in the last 20 years

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yes, Red Burgundy has moved from being

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: often problematic

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to being much more dependable

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: we've talked about this already

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and White Burgundy has been going through

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: this problem

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but there have been many growers

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: who have still been making

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful and delicious wines

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: 30 years ago

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you had some people who were using

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: 100% New Oak on Premier Crew Merseys

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and these wines were immediately

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: uncorked and drunk

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: so there have always been some people

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: whose wines were

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: destined to be drunk

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and were drunk young

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and others

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: who were not trying to do that at all

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: so I'm sure there's been an adaptation

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and many people have been battling

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: with what have been really serious issues

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes commercially

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: very dangerous for them

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because if a grower making a large

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: numbers of Grand Crews

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: suddenly realises that

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: one whole vintage has been

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: ruined by poor corks

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: were he to go public on that

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and say actually the whole of my

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: vintage is faulty

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: he would find that

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a mass of people were bringing stock back

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and A wouldn't have the stock

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to replace it

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and B wouldn't necessarily have the

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: money to give them their money back

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's one of the reasons why

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: there's been quiet at this end of the link

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's financially

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a very painful and difficult thing to do

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to manage

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: another issue that's become more and more

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to the fore since you were writing

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: was climate change

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: how much do you think that climate

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: change was happening

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: during the period that you were writing

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but was maybe less commented on at that time

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in the 80s and the 90s

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: so you think you were in a climate change

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: period without realising

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we were because in the 1982 book

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about the reputation of Burgundy

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: is based on a false premise

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: in fact

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: great and good wine is only made in Burgundy

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: approximately three years out of 10

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: this was to do with the weather at the time

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and also to do with the skills

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: which were known or whatever

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: now you one couldn't say that today

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so we were talking about

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: different climate in the 60s

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and the 70s to what we've got now

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but I wasn't aware of

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of when the book came out

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 80s and then in the 90s

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: by this stage we were getting

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: slightly more regular weather

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but in the 70s

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 60s and the 70s

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a terrible period for

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: vintages

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: 63, 65 and 68

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: were really dreary

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: terrible vintages

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there was some difficult weather conditions

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 60s and the 70s

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: we were getting to the 80s and the 90s

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and since the turn of the millennium

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: we're into different weather patterns, aren't we?

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were to write another edition

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: of this book today

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you think would be

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the defining topics of a next book?

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It would need research on the ground

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: village by village

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: describing in detail

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: now the

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: probably the doubled numbers of domains

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: who are able to make wine

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: for bottling themselves

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and selling directly from the domain

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: what has changed since the 1982 edition

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: is that more of the leading

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: négociants

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: have decided to purchase their own vineyards

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: take an example of the Alba Beechow company

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in Burgundy

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was first here

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they owned

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: vineyards at all

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: since then they've created

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: a big domain of their own

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: because they know that that is the

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: best way to secure your sources of supply

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: here you've got a shift in power

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: between domains and négociants

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: which would need to be talked about

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: many négociants have had to recognize

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that actually

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what people really want today

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: is authentic Burgundy

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and many consumers love the concept of the domain

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: look at a firm like Maison Joseph Favellé

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: which has always owned 100 hectares or whatever

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but when I was first in Burgundy

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what they call themselves

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: they recently changed their name

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to be Domain Favellé

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so why did they do that?

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: well we'd have to ask Alon and Yves Favellé

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: why they did it

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but it'll be partly to do with the fact that

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Maison J Favellé doesn't really describe

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: what they do anymore

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because something like 80% of their production

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: comes from their own vineyards

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: if you look at Luijado for instance

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: which has had the benefit of massive American investment

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: over many many years

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: they have expanded and expanded their domain

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and they still are buying more vineyards

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: so those are two issues

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: an issue would certainly be

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: telling the story of what's happened

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of clonal selection

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and also massile selection

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in the last 20 years

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so about 25 or 30 or maybe 35 domains

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: have got together to say

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: look we're going to retain the best

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: pinos in our different domains

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: breed from them

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're going to multiply them

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to make sure that they are

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: virus free

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're going to be able to share

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: amongst ourselves

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: this multiplicity of pinos

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: because we want to make sure

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: these are not lost

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that's been a really beneficial thing

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: which is happening

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of off the radar

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't really get talked about

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things which has improved enormously

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in recent years

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: has been the quality of wine

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: coming out at regional level

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Borgon Rouge

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Borgon Hot Coat de Bowne

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Borgon Hot Coat de Nuit

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I've always thought it was extraordinary

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that someone like Saint-Spré

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and Carneros can make

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a really delicious Pinot Noir

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and they just call it Pinot Noir

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: what you failed to have in Burgundy

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: was anybody concentrating

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: on making a really delicious Borgon Rouge

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: well that still doesn't really happen very much

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because everybody's so obsessed

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: with trying to have

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: either Grand Cruiser

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Premier Cruiser

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Village wines or whatever

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so that will still dominate

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but there isn't a single brand

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of Borgon Rouge

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: which is widely respected at this stage

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: perhaps that will never happen

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but we do get

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: more and more

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: high quality wines

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: being made at regional level

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's really encouraging really

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but therefore the excitement of Burgundy

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: can be shared without it costing a fortune

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Anthony Hanson wrote the book on Burgundy

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and he not only did it once

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: he did it twice

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you very much for being here today

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you very much for having me

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Anthony Hanson of Haines

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Hanson and Clark

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and the Hong Kong Fine Wine Experience

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: all drink to that is hosted

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and produced by myself

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Levy Dalton

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Aaron Scala has contributed

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: original pieces

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: editorial assistants

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: has been provided by Bill Kimsey

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the show music was performed

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and composed by

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Rob Moose and Thomas Bartlett

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: show artwork by Alicia Tenoyan

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: t-shirts sweatshirts coffee mugs

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and so much more

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: including show stickers

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: notebooks and even gift wrap

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: are available for sale

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: if you check the show website

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: all drink to that pod.com

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that's ILL

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: drink to that

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: pod.com

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which is the same place

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[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and thank you for listening

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This episode came together

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: with a lot of help from the Wasserman family

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: who have helped countless writers

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and journalists learn more

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: about Burgundy over the years

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Many people new to Burgundy

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: are initially attracted

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: by the great wines of the Côte de Nuit

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the Grand Cruiser

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the premier cruise of the Côte de Nuit

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Volné and Pommar

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: although these are the two villages

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: which perhaps produce

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: the most wonderful wines of

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Côte de Beaume

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't have

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a vineyard attached to them

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: so you can't link it in your mind

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: with one particular vineyard

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and then think like

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got Gervier Chambretin

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: or you've got Chambord Mousigny

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the word Mousigny and Chambord

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is associated with the village

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore this

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: helps to sell

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the common level wine

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: with Volné

[01:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got four or five or six

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: premier cruise

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: right up there at the top level

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and another four or five or six

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that are slightly beneath it

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in Pommar as we know

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the growers are trying to get

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Rougin and Epineau

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: consecrated as Grand Cruiser

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Pommar is in an interesting situation

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: because it used to be

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the village of the Côte de Beaume

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: which was very much in demand

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in the 50s and the 60s

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: because Pommar was a very easy word to say

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in English speaking countries

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody could pronounce Pommar

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas it's not the same with

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Ocidia or Pernod Virgilles

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: or something

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and the wines

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because they were quite structured

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and quite tannic

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: they were often export satisfactorily

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they were quite strong on export markets

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it then became a bit unfashionable

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not quite sure why Pommar

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: became unfashionable but

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Volné perhaps because Volné

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: has got four or five

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: top estates

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: which were absolutely

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: making wonderful wine

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we've talked about de Monti

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: we've talked about Don Joville

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we must also mention Michel Lafarge

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and we must mention Domaine de la Poustau

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: which when Gérard Potelle

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: took it over and built it up

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: from 1964 onwards

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: became one of the four or five

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: great domains of Volné

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and now you have some others

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: coming on board

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like Thomas Boulet

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I should declare an interest

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because we import his wine into the UK

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but some lesser known

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: slightly what used to be off the radar

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: domains in Volné

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: which are also up there

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: making very beautiful wines now

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so Volné's got four famous old estates

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and also the wines of course

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: are quite different aren't they

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: between Volné and Pommar

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and in Volné

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: just like with Chambord Mousigny

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: we can talk about a village

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: producing some of the finest

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and most perfumed and subtle

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and delicate wines

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore that's something

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to home in on

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas Pommar can get a bit muddled up

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: with the Courtois

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or Chassein Montrache

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which can be quite tannic

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but wine making is being adapted

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a bit in Pommar

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so the wines are being made to be

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: more attractive when youthful

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to be less strongly structured

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: with sometimes slightly rustic

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: tannins on the finish

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the growers have moved on

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a bit to make slightly more

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: user-friendly wines