500: Richard Sanford and the Hot Tub Time Machine Wine Fermenters

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[00:01:01] I'm Levi Dalton, and this is all drink to that where we get behind the scenes of the wine business

[00:01:07] You

[00:01:24] Richard Sanford on the show today Richard co-founded the Sanford and Benedict winery in Santa Barbara County and then

[00:01:30] Founded Sanford winery and then also Alma Rosa also in Santa Barbara. Hello, sir. How are you? I'm very well today

[00:01:36] So your dad was a graduate of Annapolis the Naval Academy in the 1920s

[00:01:43] 1924 and

[00:01:46] then he went off to the Pacific and was on ships in the Pacific on

[00:01:52] Midway Island when Pearl Harbor happened in

[00:01:57] December 7th and

[00:01:59] I was born in March of 1941. So I

[00:02:04] Was there with my family on December 7th, I was only nine months old so I don't really remember that part

[00:02:13] but soon after we were shipped away from the islands and

[00:02:18] The dependents were shipped off to Los Angeles

[00:02:22] where we

[00:02:24] stayed and grew up really in the Los Angeles region and

[00:02:28] Your dad continued in a naval career and he was in the Korean War

[00:02:32] Went on to the Korean War and then later on

[00:02:38] Became involved in the military sea transportation system

[00:02:43] was captain of the port in Pier 37 in Seattle and I always remember shipping the

[00:02:50] troops off to the war and

[00:02:53] that was very sad to see but it was wonderful to see the homecoming with all the can-can dancers on the

[00:02:59] Pier in Seattle when they returned

[00:03:03] And you grew up Episcopalian your faith was Episcopalian. Yes. My mother was very strong Episcopalian coming from, Texas

[00:03:12] and she was insistent on taking us all to church and we had a

[00:03:17] our Reverend Trigney

[00:03:20] Was a fire and brimstone kind of Reverend

[00:03:24] pretty scary for a young person and

[00:03:27] That's sort of my memory of the whole thing as being a little bit scary going to church

[00:03:33] And she wanted so much for us to be

[00:03:36] faithful and religious but

[00:03:40] Some of it didn't catch on so well

[00:03:42] and then like your father you also became a sailor I

[00:03:48] Had a great affinity for the ocean and I would spend a lot of time

[00:03:53] At the Portuguese Bend Club with the bosun Karl Bjorklund

[00:03:58] He was a Danish man and he taught me all about knots

[00:04:02] taught me how to splice rope and

[00:04:06] I used to go

[00:04:09] Crabbing

[00:04:10] getting lobster

[00:04:12] those days in the 50s we would wade into the water and

[00:04:18] Take red abalone right off the rocks. It was quite magical

[00:04:22] and I would ride down with my sister and

[00:04:26] Get the crab pot and the lobsters and the abalone and we would put them in a sack and ride home

[00:04:34] challenge was sometimes when they lobster would prick the horse through the

[00:04:41] the bag the

[00:04:43] Canvas bag and the horse would run up the hill. Well, I went to

[00:04:50] high school and

[00:04:53] Then sadly my day of graduation

[00:04:58] My father was admitted to the

[00:05:02] Hospital with neurological disease and I have a feeling that it was really PTSD at that time

[00:05:11] he had been sunk on a hospital ship that he was

[00:05:15] Going to Korea on

[00:05:18] Out the San Francisco Bay and was never quite the same

[00:05:23] So it was a sad part in my life that my family couldn't come to my

[00:05:29] graduation ceremony and

[00:05:31] All of our family resources went to his care

[00:05:35] so I had to make my own way and

[00:05:40] We lived close to

[00:05:42] Captain Medvey who was the captain of the port for Standard Oil and in San Pedro

[00:05:48] He helped me get my merchant license

[00:05:52] And so I signed aboard a merchant ship

[00:05:56] To work for a year before I went to college and that's the way I put myself through school.

[00:06:04] I started at UCSB Santa Barbara and

[00:06:09] Began studying geology and I found that when we got more involved in crystallography and mineralogy it became so finite

[00:06:20] That I was more interested in the broader aspects of geology which would be more

[00:06:27] Geomorphology and actually geography

[00:06:31] At that time UCSB did not have a geography department

[00:06:37] but you UC Berkeley had a splendid geography department and

[00:06:43] So I decided to move to Berkeley at that time

[00:06:47] Just had a geography

[00:06:50] And I loved it. It was just wonderful to experience the world and get to know about

[00:06:56] How the world worked and I was so interested in the human interaction with the physical landscape

[00:07:02] Where people went and what they did when they got there. It was just fascinating to me

[00:07:07] And I loved school. It was really a wonderful experience

[00:07:12] And your tuition was $53 a year

[00:07:15] $52

[00:07:17] It was magical, you know to be able to go to school and

[00:07:21] Have so much support

[00:07:24] And there was a moment there where you were

[00:07:27] Going on ships to different countries and during that moment you were drafted.

[00:07:33] I used to do a lot of sailing

[00:07:36] Levee and that was my

[00:07:39] outlet

[00:07:41] Social outlet it was really exciting and fun

[00:07:45] And I went several times to Hawaii actually

[00:07:50] Six times to Hawaii and the boat I was on won the Tahiti race. We had really

[00:07:56] magical experiences sailing with a crew

[00:08:01] Luckily I got into that and began to meet other people I found that

[00:08:07] Sailing was a culture that

[00:08:10] Only

[00:08:12] People with means could have a boat

[00:08:14] but they needed crew to sail the boat and so I

[00:08:18] learned that if I

[00:08:20] sailed well and paid attention I

[00:08:24] Would be invited to go on these different races

[00:08:28] And at that time I was feeling a little sorry for myself because I couldn't afford to go places that my friends were going

[00:08:36] So I thought philosophically

[00:08:39] In fact I'd learned to sail and

[00:08:42] I could learn navigation. I

[00:08:45] Could go anywhere in the world and it wouldn't cost me anything

[00:08:48] and so I set out to do that when I was at UCSB and

[00:08:53] sure enough I began being invited on these races and learned how to navigate and

[00:09:00] Pretty soon I became in demand for racing

[00:09:04] So about I think

[00:09:08] 1963 I went on a race to Hawaii

[00:09:12] and at that time I

[00:09:15] Had a bug and an interest in travel. I

[00:09:19] needed an adventure in my life and

[00:09:23] so I went to Hawaii and then met up with a guy that

[00:09:28] Was going on to Samoa to build voyaging canoes. I

[00:09:32] Had navigation ability and so we went to Samoa together to find the right

[00:09:39] Trees to build these canoes that we were going to sail back to Hawaii

[00:09:44] we went to Western Samoa and

[00:09:49] It was really a magical place because there weren't really a lot of

[00:09:55] Roads, it was mostly

[00:09:57] trails that we walked on

[00:10:00] I'll always remember

[00:10:03] Wearing a lava lava and

[00:10:06] having a

[00:10:08] basket with all my belongings and we would walk around the island because there were no roads and we would be

[00:10:15] invited to stay at the talking chiefs house and

[00:10:19] usually the kids would kill a chicken and they

[00:10:23] prepare it and they'd have a feast and we would sit along with the elders and

[00:10:29] talk about

[00:10:30] Life and only the way we could we didn't speak the language, but enough people spoke English. So

[00:10:37] it was really a

[00:10:39] very exciting experience and we finally

[00:10:43] settled in a little village

[00:10:45] And we went to work

[00:10:47] Looking for the tamalini trees that we needed for our canoes

[00:10:53] But

[00:10:55] The trees that we cut down were rotten on the interior

[00:11:00] and then I developed

[00:11:03] tonsillitis and

[00:11:05] went to

[00:11:07] Apia to the hospital there and

[00:11:11] then eventually went on to

[00:11:15] Fiji in New Zealand

[00:11:17] Because I needed some extra care

[00:11:21] And so I found myself in New Zealand, but really no way to get back

[00:11:27] And that was before New Zealand was a wine country it was all

[00:11:32] sheep

[00:11:34] but I

[00:11:36] signed aboard an English ship from Shaw sal ville and Albion on a

[00:11:42] refrigerator ship full of butter and lamb that was going to England and

[00:11:47] so we went up through the Panama Canal and

[00:11:51] had lots of experiences with the young crew because in

[00:11:55] in England

[00:11:57] people apprentice and

[00:12:00] So the people were young like myself and I had great pals

[00:12:05] That when we got to England, I would go and visit them in their respective

[00:12:09] Cities and really got a feeling for the culture of the place. It was a wonderful experience

[00:12:15] And you became what was known as a undesirable alien. I was an undesirable

[00:12:21] alien in England and so

[00:12:24] That means that I entered England without

[00:12:30] Documentation I was a seaman and

[00:12:33] so I

[00:12:34] Had to get out and so I went to France for a little while and then came back

[00:12:40] but I was eventually able to make my way back to America and

[00:12:47] In the interim while I was away. I had of course lost my student deferment

[00:12:52] For military service and

[00:12:56] They were very happy to be drafting people into the Vietnam conflict

[00:13:03] Actually my

[00:13:05] Mother wrote me and said your draft notices arrived. What do I do? And I said

[00:13:12] Send it to my last known address

[00:13:14] And

[00:13:15] Those were days when you could go to any post office and have a place to pick up mail that was forwarded to you

[00:13:23] and

[00:13:25] So I have my draft notice to this day that has

[00:13:29] Postmark from all over the world. So when I got back I joined the Naval Reserve

[00:13:35] To keep out of the military because I wanted to finish my studies at Berkeley and

[00:13:42] So I came back and went back to my studies and

[00:13:47] Went to my reserve meetings

[00:13:51] And it was a really challenging time

[00:13:54] Levy because

[00:13:57] There were huge demonstrations against the Vietnam War at that time

[00:14:02] and lots of marching and lots of police and

[00:14:06] Legions of police walking up with their batons and it was very uncomfortable being in the military

[00:14:14] but what witnessing all this happening and

[00:14:19] I

[00:14:20] It was really impactful for me because I saw all the people

[00:14:26] That were demonstrating were

[00:14:30] like sheep following a leader and

[00:14:33] I felt to myself don't people can't people think for themselves and this is not

[00:14:40] appropriate war to be in and I didn't feel very good about it and

[00:14:44] I was in the military and so it was a really

[00:14:48] conflicted

[00:14:49] situation for me

[00:14:51] but nonetheless I had a military family background and my father was a proud military person and

[00:14:59] I decided to continue on and finally when I did graduate I

[00:15:05] went to OCS in Newport, Rhode Island became an officer and

[00:15:10] then I was

[00:15:13] Sent off to a destroyer and spent three years in Vietnam sailed around the South China Sea and

[00:15:21] During gunfire support an outfit called Sea Dragon up in the north coast of Vietnam where we weren't supposed to be

[00:15:28] But that's been declassified so I can tell you I

[00:15:34] Was the navigator on the ship and also the

[00:15:40] administration officer and the

[00:15:45] Personnel officer on the ship and you have a lot of collateral duties on a destroyer because there are a few officers

[00:15:53] So

[00:15:55] When you go into the military as a young person as an officer

[00:16:00] You've got to grow up really fast

[00:16:02] it was just quite an amazing experience to be one time just as a student and

[00:16:10] Four months later, I'm standing on the bridge of a ship responsible for this beautiful ship and all of its men and I'm

[00:16:18] Guiding the ship and it's a it's was scary

[00:16:22] But you really had to grow up and pay attention and

[00:16:27] I

[00:16:29] always

[00:16:30] think that that experience working with men and

[00:16:34] being in command and

[00:16:37] being respectful and responsible for

[00:16:40] my guys was

[00:16:43] monumental in my life

[00:16:45] to bring me to the realization that

[00:16:48] Working with people took courage and respect and

[00:16:53] So it set the stage really for me for

[00:16:57] Working with people in my whole life

[00:17:01] You signed yourself off to destroyer and took a journey through some foreign countries

[00:17:08] It was 1968 I went to see in 1965 and

[00:17:14] In 1968

[00:17:17] It was very well recognized that the Vietnam War was a mistake

[00:17:22] There were huge demonstrations in San Francisco about the war

[00:17:29] And anyone who was going to the war was coming back from the war were not well regarded

[00:17:36] It was a sad period in our country frankly and

[00:17:40] It was a sad period in our country frankly and

[00:17:43] I decided that I did not want to go back to San Francisco to face that I

[00:17:50] felt sheepish about being in the war about going in the first place and

[00:17:56] It's a remarkable to this day people say well, why did you go to the war because everybody was trying to get out?

[00:18:02] And they were very proud of the different methods that they would make to get out

[00:18:07] and so it was a conflict for me, and I I went I

[00:18:15] Found that there was a way to write my orders so that if I went west I

[00:18:21] Could catch a courier airplane that went around the world once a week

[00:18:26] As long as I kept going west

[00:18:29] So I packed my uniform in a little satchel

[00:18:32] And I went off on this courier airplane from Subic Bay

[00:18:37] to

[00:18:40] Bangkok and spent some time there and then got into my uniform and went from Bangkok

[00:18:48] to Calcutta I

[00:18:51] Thought I needed a little spirit quest and this was really what I was doing, and I didn't realize it at the time

[00:18:59] But I was searching for something more fundamental in my life

[00:19:04] and I felt

[00:19:07] That I needed to go to other places to get inspiration and

[00:19:12] I never felt myself particularly religious, but I found myself very spiritual

[00:19:18] and this whole

[00:19:20] experience of the Vietnam and coming back to a

[00:19:27] Country that was non-welcoming

[00:19:30] Caused me to reject the culture that had grown up in

[00:19:37] I said this is not fair

[00:19:40] I don't agree with this and of course McNamara came along a few years later and said sorry you guys

[00:19:47] I made a mistake

[00:19:48] Well, it's a little late

[00:19:50] but

[00:19:52] nonetheless

[00:19:54] I rejected the culture I had grown up with and so doing rejected the

[00:20:01] Religion that I'd grown up with so I was really

[00:20:05] empty

[00:20:07] And I had the opportunity to create my own

[00:20:12] Philosophy in my own way as an adult it's quite remarkable experience

[00:20:18] To start over again as an adult to plan your life

[00:20:23] and

[00:20:25] So I found myself in Calcutta

[00:20:28] thinking that I could

[00:20:29] save the world and

[00:20:31] I walked down the street in

[00:20:34] those days in the

[00:20:36] 60s

[00:20:37] There were lepers

[00:20:39] There were all kinds of people destitute

[00:20:42] Begging I started giving rupees out

[00:20:46] And I kept giving more and more and finally after two blocks of this. I

[00:20:51] Said you know what? I don't have enough money to solve this

[00:20:55] And so I really began to recognize

[00:20:59] compassion and I became very compassionate about the people and understood that that's the nature of

[00:21:05] People all living together and having all these challenges and that was the beauty of

[00:21:11] the philosophy the spiritual philosophy of that part of the world and

[00:21:20] Nepal had just been opened by the king of

[00:21:23] Nepal to outside visitors and

[00:21:29] So I decided I would go from Calcutta I took the train to a place called Raksol

[00:21:36] And I always remember because the only thing I could eat

[00:21:40] was an

[00:21:42] Orange and a coca-cola

[00:21:45] Because everything else I couldn't touch because of all the disease that was there

[00:21:53] So I went to Raksol and then caught a truck and

[00:21:58] Went up the through the low Himalayas into the Kathmandu Valley

[00:22:02] And as I arrived in the Kathmandu Valley, it was just like stepping back to the Middle Ages and

[00:22:11] Spiritual philosophy there of course was

[00:22:15] Sacrifice of goats and there were

[00:22:18] temples with blood draining down and it was quite

[00:22:22] Remarkable different culture than I had grown up

[00:22:26] And of course that

[00:22:29] Hippy time they were advertising by your hashish at the government store because you know the

[00:22:37] People were going for all kinds of psychedelic reasons. I was there for

[00:22:46] more of a spirit quest and

[00:22:50] Eventually left Nepal and then came back to

[00:22:56] California

[00:23:00] But that changed my whole

[00:23:04] Perception of how we should be in the world and I came back

[00:23:10] trying to be in business I had a

[00:23:14] Person that was a great supporter that was a sailing person in

[00:23:20] Santa Barbara, his name was Bill Wilson. He had a boat called the rascal that I sailed on a lot

[00:23:26] And he and I teamed up in business and tried to create a little

[00:23:31] company making videotape for education

[00:23:36] And it was a really exciting project but I found myself in places that I didn't really want to be in I

[00:23:47] Was driving around in a 911 t-porsche and being

[00:23:52] pretty proud of what I was doing and

[00:23:55] Going to Hollywood and having all these meetings and

[00:24:01] Eventually as we were getting this business started I

[00:24:05] Found myself with my briefcase

[00:24:09] In the middle of the San Ynez River

[00:24:14] naked

[00:24:15] trying to do my business work and

[00:24:18] I said to myself

[00:24:21] Something's not quite right here

[00:24:24] There I am in nature

[00:24:27] Trying to do all this stuff that was very foreign to me

[00:24:31] That I really had to give that up and be in nature. And so I

[00:24:41] Decided the way to be in nature

[00:24:44] for my lifetime

[00:24:46] Would be to be an agriculture and to be in farming

[00:24:52] While I was in the Navy

[00:24:55] Our ship was home ported in San Diego

[00:25:02] And I had a shipmate who was a fellow officer

[00:25:06] And we would have dinner together

[00:25:10] periodically and

[00:25:11] We went to bully's steakhouse in La Jolla

[00:25:16] Close to San Diego where our ship was based. I

[00:25:21] Knew nothing about wine

[00:25:24] Our family weren't wine people they had jug wine and

[00:25:32] My friend curiously his name was Scott wine

[00:25:37] Lieutenant Scott wine

[00:25:40] He knew about wine he introduced me to a beautiful volnay and

[00:25:47] That was impactful for me because

[00:25:49] The

[00:25:51] Beverage that I had no concept of I would think I was struck by the elegance of the wine and

[00:25:59] The structure of the pinot noir the volnay being a pinot noir

[00:26:04] Now I didn't feel like it was gonna rush off and be a winemaker, but that set a stage in my mind

[00:26:10] it's at a

[00:26:12] Concept that that was delicious this wine

[00:26:15] So

[00:26:17] When I finally decided that I would be in agriculture I thought

[00:26:22] Well, why wouldn't I grow grapes and?

[00:26:27] Everyone said well, that's a stupid idea

[00:26:32] Actually the farmers said grapes wouldn't grow here, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara County. I

[00:26:40] Thought well, I just go over the hill and plant some grapes

[00:26:43] Well going over the hill meant that I would be planning grapes in Oporto it was just so warm

[00:26:52] But using my background in geography I began to study the interesting

[00:27:00] Climates of the Santiago Valley

[00:27:04] This is called the transverse mountain range of California and there was a period of time when the crustal development of the

[00:27:15] Coast

[00:27:18] The Pacific Plate

[00:27:20] undercut the North American Plate and a piece broke off

[00:27:26] Because all these mountain ranges were originally

[00:27:29] oriented north and south in California in California

[00:27:34] but at this period

[00:27:37] This crustal deformation caused a big section

[00:27:42] To shift

[00:27:45] 90 degrees and

[00:27:47] So these north-south mountains then shifted to east and west

[00:27:54] So it is curious that you go from Los Angeles

[00:27:59] to Santa Barbara, you're actually driving west and not north and

[00:28:04] That was hard for people to imagine

[00:28:06] But the beauty of that transverse mountain range is that of course we're in the latitude of westerly winds and

[00:28:15] So the winds coming off the ocean blowing into the valley moderated the climate

[00:28:20] and

[00:28:22] so as I began to study more and more about it, I

[00:28:26] found that

[00:28:28] The climate changed about a degree a mile as you went east or west on the transverse mountain range

[00:28:36] You drove with your pickup truck and you put a thermometer

[00:28:39] Through the window and you noticed this change.

[00:28:45] I decided that I wanted to be a wine grower. There was only one person

[00:28:55] Suggested that would be a good idea. His name was Benjamin Hewey

[00:29:00] From Santa Barbara, and he said Richard if I were young man, I'd plant a vineyard

[00:29:05] And I said, I think that's a wonderful idea and I was thinking the same thing and

[00:29:14] So I

[00:29:15] Thought well, where would I go to find more information about this?

[00:29:20] I would go to Davis to the school

[00:29:23] That was really the wine school from California

[00:29:28] So I went there

[00:29:31] Thinking that maybe I would want to go in to get a degree in viticulture or enology

[00:29:36] And I looked at the curriculum I

[00:29:40] Interviewed some of the professors in the curriculum and

[00:29:46] You may remember Maynard Ameren

[00:29:50] There were some wonderful

[00:29:52] Characters in the viticulture department at that time and I talked to a lot of them

[00:30:00] and

[00:30:01] Then I thought to myself, you know

[00:30:05] Do I want to spend three years

[00:30:07] Getting another degree when I'd had a degree from Berkeley

[00:30:12] Or if I planted a vineyard in three years, I'd have some grapes maybe

[00:30:18] So I went to the bookstore at Davis and

[00:30:22] Bought every book I could find about viticulture and enology

[00:30:26] and drove home

[00:30:29] Inspired reading all those books and

[00:30:32] Finally I decided, you know, I think maybe I could probably do this

[00:30:38] And that inspired me

[00:30:40] to learn more about viticulture and where grapes grew and

[00:30:46] I figured out

[00:30:48] That the precision of the whole thing

[00:30:51] was to be where the great variety prospered and

[00:30:57] Grapes grow all over the world as I learned

[00:31:01] So finally I decided that I would find

[00:31:05] the place

[00:31:06] That could duplicate that beautiful volnay that I experienced earlier in the military

[00:31:13] So that's when I took my old

[00:31:18] 1950

[00:31:20] GMC pickup truck and it had a

[00:31:25] Rubber around the windshield and I put my thermometer through it and drove up and down these valleys

[00:31:31] Thinking about the climate and

[00:31:35] zone that I wanted to be in and I found that there were definitely zones of climate and I

[00:31:43] Figured that this phenomenon of these transverse mountain ranges

[00:31:48] Were consistent from San Luis Obispo in the north

[00:31:52] to the San Ys valley in the south

[00:31:56] so

[00:31:57] the Edna Valley in San Luis Obispo

[00:32:00] Santa Maria Valley

[00:32:03] Eroa Grande and

[00:32:05] San Ines Valley

[00:32:08] Los Alamos Valley all open to the west and

[00:32:12] So I went in all those valleys up and down looking for the right place

[00:32:18] And I found a band of climate about four miles wide that I decided I would look within

[00:32:25] And then I began to look at all the different properties

[00:32:30] and my prejudice at that time was that

[00:32:34] Our grapes needed good drainage the drainage was key and

[00:32:42] That as I drove around looking for the right soils I found

[00:32:49] Abandoned

[00:32:51] Bean farm

[00:32:54] That had been owned by a

[00:32:57] Portuguese family

[00:32:59] Portuguese were big settlers in this part of the world a

[00:33:03] lot of people came from the Azores the fishermen ended up at Avila Beach and the farmers came inland so there was a lot of

[00:33:12] garbanzo beans and lima beans

[00:33:16] It was still that sort of

[00:33:21] end of the

[00:33:23] Rancho period

[00:33:26] The Rancho period was really

[00:33:28] 1837 when

[00:33:32] The Mexicans were looking forward to the Yankees coming and they were trying to get land into the

[00:33:38] Mexican ownership, so they granted these large ranches to Mexican national people

[00:33:46] And that began the Rancho period which really didn't last very long but in

[00:33:51] 1837 a lot 1840 that period

[00:33:55] these large ranches

[00:33:57] became popular and

[00:34:02] That was true in Santa Barbara County, so there were a lot of big properties and

[00:34:10] I

[00:34:12] found on

[00:34:13] Santa Rosa Road between

[00:34:16] Buolton and Lompoc

[00:34:18] There was a little property

[00:34:21] that seemed very appealing to me this abandoned bean farm and

[00:34:27] It was bordering the San Ines River

[00:34:30] And it had been an old landslide, so this is all part of the

[00:34:36] Monterey formation it was

[00:34:40] Sedimentary formation in the Miocene period

[00:34:44] and that had been uplifted and tilted and

[00:34:48] weathered

[00:34:49] so there was a lot of ocean deposit a lot of diatomaceous earth and

[00:34:55] And

[00:34:56] because of the silica a lot of chert hard angular chert that made very sharp edges and

[00:35:06] as the

[00:35:08] Weathering happened and a landslide happened on this particular property a lot of angular

[00:35:14] Stone, so that was very gravelly and well-drained

[00:35:19] You're looking at this in the late 60s early 70s

[00:35:23] Exactly this was

[00:35:28] Actually backtracking a little bit I had

[00:35:34] Decided that I was going to do this business and

[00:35:40] So there had been an experimental vineyard planted in Santa Barbara on the Tepesque Mesa in the Santa Maria Valley a

[00:35:49] Person called Bill Demattei and Uriel Nielsen were grape growers from Delano and

[00:35:55] And

[00:35:58] Those days there were valley grapes which were mostly Thompson seedless and

[00:36:05] Table grapes and there were coastal wine grapes it wasn't much ever differentiation

[00:36:14] But the coastal wine grapes you could get 150 bucks a ton

[00:36:18] the Valley grapes $52 a ton and

[00:36:22] So these guys decided that they would experiment out here in this region

[00:36:28] with an experimental planting which became the Nielsen vineyard and

[00:36:35] So I turned my

[00:36:41] 9-11 Porsche in and got a Caterpillar tractor I

[00:36:48] Decided I would be in the wine business

[00:36:51] And I wasn't gonna wait for anything I had to get going

[00:36:55] and

[00:36:57] so I learned that

[00:36:59] grapes are grown from cuttings and

[00:37:03] You could buy a cutting for 10 cents and you could grow them into rootings and a rooting is worth 90 cents and

[00:37:14] So I thought to myself

[00:37:17] If I could get a bunch of cuttings and put them in the ground

[00:37:22] in nine months

[00:37:25] They'd be worth 90 cents

[00:37:29] So that was my inspiration to plant a

[00:37:33] nursery of

[00:37:35] Cuttings which I bought from the Nielsen vineyard

[00:37:39] and

[00:37:40] That vineyard had Riesling

[00:37:46] Chardonnay and Cabernet and

[00:37:51] Cabernet was a big grape in this area at that time as was Riesling

[00:37:59] So we planted those. I had a friend Norm Bacon who had the chandlery in Santa Barbara and a piece of land

[00:38:07] Here in the San Ynez Valley next to Buttonwood

[00:38:13] So we leased that land

[00:38:15] from Norm Bacon

[00:38:17] Actually, we never paid him

[00:38:20] He was gracious about that

[00:38:24] He saw our enthusiasm for what we were doing and he wanted to help

[00:38:28] So we had all of our friends our sailing friends come and we planted the cuttings into a nursery

[00:38:37] And this is pretty seat-of-the-pants learn as you go kind of thing, but

[00:38:42] miraculously

[00:38:44] If you plant a cutting

[00:38:47] Right side up it will grow don't want to plant them upside down

[00:38:53] And so that's why

[00:38:56] when you have a cutting you have

[00:38:59] One end that's angular and one that's flat so that you know which end to put in the ground

[00:39:07] So anyway, we had this little nursery going and it was kind of remarkable

[00:39:12] To see these buds popping and the grapes actually drawing from a stick that looked dead

[00:39:19] But what about the hot tub time machine?

[00:39:22] wine fermenters

[00:39:24] The open-top fermenters were not available in this country

[00:39:29] But my friend Gary Gordon had

[00:39:33] Created a hot tub company in Santa Barbara, and I found some American

[00:39:40] White oak that was quarter sawn that was important for barrel making

[00:39:45] And we actually made our fermenters in his hot tub factory

[00:39:50] We'll find out after the break

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[00:41:34] So then as the vineyard

[00:41:39] nursery began to perform

[00:41:42] We had to get busy trying to find the capital resources and to put these grapes into

[00:41:49] the vineyard

[00:41:52] And I had located this ranch

[00:41:55] The old bean farm and approached the owner

[00:42:01] Bill Kalfas who lived in Long Beach. He was an attorney

[00:42:07] He had purchased this old bean farm because the family the da Costa family needed to sell it for tax reasons

[00:42:16] So I did all my studies

[00:42:18] I went to the county to find out who the ownership was and did all my due diligence research

[00:42:24] as

[00:42:25] sort of basic as it was

[00:42:29] And we looked at all kinds of weather charts and

[00:42:34] tried to get some soil samples and just

[00:42:38] convince ourselves that this was an okay place to be and

[00:42:43] Then I'll always remember marching into this

[00:42:46] Office of Bill Kalfas and saying it you would like to buy your ranch and this is what we want to do

[00:42:55] That we would like to lease it

[00:42:57] For a period of time until we can get the vineyard established and we'll be upgrading the ranch in the meantime

[00:43:04] After which time we would like to have a lease option and

[00:43:11] So I think that again Bill Kalfas recognized our enthusiasm and

[00:43:19] Curiously at

[00:43:21] That time there were tax advantages to planting vineyards and for some reason

[00:43:28] citrus grows and cattle

[00:43:31] and

[00:43:32] I'm not so

[00:43:34] Sure how that came about

[00:43:36] But that was the perfect entree for us to go out and find potential investors to give them a tax write-off

[00:43:45] So now we had the vines

[00:43:50] The rootings

[00:43:52] We had the place

[00:43:54] But we just needed the money

[00:43:57] Because I didn't know

[00:44:03] $500 from $10,000, you know, I never had any money

[00:44:08] And finally I ended up

[00:44:11] Making my pitch to

[00:44:15] The wine committee at the LA Country Club and

[00:44:18] And

[00:44:21] Nice group of gentlemen a

[00:44:24] Very haram fee place. It was, you know, very intimidating

[00:44:30] But we went and gave our presentation

[00:44:34] And we were asking for a pitiful amount of money as it turns out we wanted to capitalize the school company on

[00:44:41] $300,000

[00:44:43] And our pro forma suggested that we would get a thousand dollars apiece as we got this thing going and

[00:44:50] Our involvement would be all sweat equity. This is you and Michael Benedict. Yes by that time Michael had joined me

[00:44:58] Michael had been the

[00:45:00] Director of the field station on Santa Cruz Island. He was a botanist. He had a background in botany

[00:45:08] so between his botany background and

[00:45:12] In my geography geology background who made we made a team I

[00:45:19] Did need someone to hold hands with through this experience because I couldn't just do it on my own frankly

[00:45:27] and we

[00:45:29] were able to make our presentation to these different people and

[00:45:35] Sure enough got their support. I

[00:45:38] Look back on the whole thing

[00:45:41] Levy and this ranch had never been electrified

[00:45:45] the da Costa

[00:45:48] family

[00:45:50] the old man

[00:45:53] Had no interest in the rural electrification program of America

[00:45:58] He didn't believe in electricity

[00:46:02] So this was a very basic place

[00:46:04] And

[00:46:06] We arrived there and it was just the perfect antidote for me after the Vietnam

[00:46:11] experience that this is where I wanted to be and needed to be in nature and

[00:46:17] So we could throw ourselves into this effort 100% and

[00:46:26] We worked long long days I drove a lot a lot of miles on a tractor and

[00:46:35] It was really hard work

[00:46:39] and we thought at that time we could do dry farming here because in

[00:46:44] Northern California they did dry farming and

[00:46:48] so the vineyard was planted on the hillside those days we planted east and west because

[00:46:54] you want to be planning into the wind to protect the vines and

[00:47:00] We did not put trellises in

[00:47:03] We planted the vineyard because we didn't really

[00:47:07] Couldn't afford the trellises at that time and

[00:47:11] So we had to do what we could when we needed to

[00:47:16] And you bought out the young plants in basins

[00:47:20] For the water truck I called it the Mariposa because it had wings that went out in

[00:47:27] Two inch pipe

[00:47:29] 1200 gallon water truck

[00:47:31] we bought the water actually never paid for it again, but

[00:47:36] The wonderful man Bill Cooper who owned the Rancho Lavinia next door allowed us to use his well

[00:47:43] where we'd go and fill the water truck and

[00:47:47] Jesus one of our workers would drive up to the top of the hill and drive down

[00:47:54] in those days the rows were quite wide because that's the way we planted vineyards in California and

[00:48:01] Our pattern was in California agriculture not European at that time and

[00:48:08] So it was a laborious way

[00:48:11] to

[00:48:13] water I

[00:48:14] Think maybe 40 acres is our first planting. It was a lot of grapes to farm ourselves

[00:48:21] In the meantime as we were getting that vineyard established in the great varieties that we had

[00:48:29] We really wanted to grow the Pinot Noir in Chardonnay and

[00:48:36] There were not any

[00:48:40] Pinot Noir

[00:48:41] clones available at that time in this region

[00:48:44] But Carl Winty was a wonderful

[00:48:48] grape propagator in

[00:48:51] Livermore

[00:48:53] So we made a deal with Carl Winty

[00:48:57] to provide some

[00:48:59] Grapes for us for the future planting for the next year

[00:49:04] So this would have been

[00:49:07] 1970 that we planted the nursery in 1971. We were prepared to then

[00:49:13] plant the vineyard in

[00:49:16] 1972 we were planting the Carl Winty's clones of Pinot Noir and the Winty Chardonnay and

[00:49:25] The clones that we chose were

[00:49:29] the Mount Eden clone that had been brought to this country by Paul Masson

[00:49:35] when he was a person before he was a corporation and

[00:49:42] The

[00:49:44] something called Napagamee and

[00:49:49] It is a very upright clone, but it made we thought gosh we could make early wine like a

[00:49:55] Beaujolais and have it available early and get some cash flow going

[00:50:01] because after

[00:50:03] Four years of doing this we desperately needed to sell something

[00:50:08] But it turned out that the Napagamee was so good. We just called it Pinot Noir and bottled it

[00:50:17] There was an old barn on the property

[00:50:22] And

[00:50:24] And and I always remember that in 1975 finally had a small production

[00:50:32] From our young vineyard and made a barrel and a half of wine

[00:50:38] And it was quite rudimentary and we were learning about winemaking at that time and

[00:50:45] It turned out so delicious that we decided we needed to convert

[00:50:51] this barn into a winemaking facility and

[00:50:56] So at that time we brought on an additional partner and that was mr. Claire Peck

[00:51:03] He had CL Peck contractor in Los Angeles

[00:51:06] His company built the Bonaventure Hotel and some of the big

[00:51:11] downtown

[00:51:12] large buildings, but he was a great partner because he had the

[00:51:17] Contracting experiences he gave us a pickup truck

[00:51:22] used of course

[00:51:24] So

[00:51:26] We needed to outfit this barn with winemaking equipment and

[00:51:32] I began to research

[00:51:35] The traditions of Burgundy and how wine was made and

[00:51:43] Learned in Burgundy they used open-top fermenters and

[00:51:48] Mostly barrels for aging and needed a cool cellar

[00:51:52] This old barn

[00:51:55] Didn't have any refrigeration there wasn't any electricity

[00:52:00] but we had springs on the property and

[00:52:03] so we piped the springs into a

[00:52:09] Misting

[00:52:11] system that misted water over the roof and

[00:52:15] He eat of evaporation

[00:52:18] Cooled the roof

[00:52:20] To make it cool inside for winemaking and storage the open-top fermenters were not available in this country

[00:52:30] But my friend Gary Gordon had

[00:52:33] Created a hot tub company in Santa Barbara, and I found some American

[00:52:41] White oak that was quarter sawn that was important for barrel making

[00:52:46] And we actually made our fermenters in his hot tub factory

[00:52:52] That was a really wonderful experience to be actually crafting our own fermenters we bought an old press

[00:53:02] From a juice company

[00:53:06] It was a Apple press

[00:53:09] And we had our fermenters in our press

[00:53:14] And we bought some barrels by then I had become good friends of Dick Graff who was

[00:53:21] responsible

[00:53:22] for the Shalom

[00:53:26] Winery and the development of the Shalom brand

[00:53:30] He became a good friend and

[00:53:36] He was importing Sarug barrels at the time because French oak was not really used much in California I

[00:53:46] think Hanzel

[00:53:48] Was using French oak

[00:53:51] Most of the oak used in Napa at that time was American oak and

[00:54:00] We bought some Sarug barrels in

[00:54:04] 1976

[00:54:08] Made our first

[00:54:10] wine

[00:54:11] And it was really exciting to have our harvest

[00:54:16] we made the error of

[00:54:20] inviting all our friends to come to the harvest that

[00:54:23] lasted about half a day a

[00:54:26] First harvest for Sanford and Benedict and

[00:54:29] the first visit from the police

[00:54:33] So as we broke for lunch

[00:54:37] there came the sheriff's car up the driveway and

[00:54:43] the sheriff came

[00:54:45] And approached me rather sheepishly

[00:54:48] And he said I've had a complaint that's after this message

[00:54:55] Alessandro

[00:54:56] Massanegheti has produced the very best maps of classic wine regions available today and

[00:55:03] I remember speaking to Alessandro about the level of focus he brings to his work

[00:55:10] When I make this

[00:55:12] this mapping

[00:55:14] Usually I don't go to the vineyards with a producer. I want to be there alone and

[00:55:21] I want them to see me that I am alone in the venue because I

[00:55:31] Want to know something more than them

[00:55:36] On the vineyards I want to show

[00:55:39] Them that I love this region so much then I knew every

[00:55:45] Every single row of vineyards every single detail

[00:55:49] The updated third edition of Alessandro's Barolo MGA book is a treasure trove of hard-to-find information

[00:55:57] And is now available for purchase if you go to rare wine co co

[00:56:03] calm forward slash maps go to rare wine co co

[00:56:09] calm forward slash maps with an s to own the definitive mapping of Barolo vineyards

[00:56:16] We had a wonderful group of friends

[00:56:20] and our neighbor

[00:56:22] Irene Donovan was an old school marm and

[00:56:26] a busybody

[00:56:27] So as we broke for lunch

[00:56:34] there came the sheriff's car up the driveway and the sheriff came and

[00:56:42] Approached me rather sheepishly

[00:56:45] And he said I've had a complaint

[00:56:51] Mrs. Donovan has reported

[00:56:53] There were naked people running around in the vineyard

[00:56:57] Well, our friends thought you know, what'd be fun just to get naked and that's why you should

[00:57:02] pick grapes

[00:57:05] Well, they weren't professional pickers or professional anything. They were just kids and

[00:57:11] having fun

[00:57:13] So I had to explain people that they had to keep their clothes on

[00:57:18] But it was pretty funny and he was rather he chuckled at the thing and I said well we'll pay more attention in the future

[00:57:26] Subsequently, of course it became

[00:57:29] Better to hire people to come and harvest the grapes and be professional about it

[00:57:36] So

[00:57:38] About that same time I had bet

[00:57:42] My wife to be Tecla and so she arrived on the scene just in time for the first harvest

[00:57:48] You met pretty much totally by chance

[00:57:51] The valley was really remote. It was kind of empty of any kind of culture at that time

[00:58:00] And so I would go to Santa Barbara

[00:58:04] For sailing and on Saturdays we would have our serious racing

[00:58:08] But on Wednesdays we would invite our girlfriends and go for a fun sail

[00:58:13] So I had this old

[00:58:16] diesel Mercedes

[00:58:20] 1959 diesel car on my way to Santa Barbara and

[00:58:26] My fan belt broke

[00:58:29] So I cruised into El Capitan the park there the state park

[00:58:36] And asked the ranger if I could leave my car there and

[00:58:39] Luckily, the ranger was going to Santa Barbara. They just gotten off duty

[00:58:44] And gave me a ride right to the harbor and I went out on the

[00:58:50] pier and

[00:58:52] The boat that I sailed on was going out to sea at that time and I waved to them and

[00:58:58] My friend said there's Sanford should we pick him up and

[00:59:01] My wife-to-be was on the boat and she said yeah pick him up

[00:59:07] So luckily I got on board the boat and she was with a different person at that time

[00:59:13] But that was my meeting of my wife Tecla and it was really magical

[00:59:19] So she came up for the very first vintage

[00:59:23] And I always remember making the Vangri together

[00:59:26] And the idea was to have a wine that you could sell early

[00:59:32] and I always remember romancing her with the

[00:59:36] Fermenting Vangri in a plastic milk jug

[00:59:41] Sitting on the hillside having this

[00:59:46] Effortless conversation and I remember

[00:59:49] Plastic milk jug sitting on the hillside having this

[00:59:56] Effervescent wonderful wine that we had created and

[01:00:01] There was a strawberry character to it. It was just really magical

[01:00:05] That was an epitome

[01:00:07] She encouraged you to go organic

[01:00:11] You know when we

[01:00:14] Started the vineyard

[01:00:16] We were using conventional agriculture because that's what you did

[01:00:20] agriculture of the time and the convention and she came along and

[01:00:27] She said Richard. Why don't you grow the grapes organically?

[01:00:32] She'd come from the Midwest her family had a

[01:00:35] Dairy farm and they were all organic

[01:00:38] And so I'm not sure that can happen that we could do that

[01:00:41] But little by little I recognize it. You know what all these chemicals

[01:00:49] Were only developed after the Second World War

[01:00:55] How are they doing this before the war?

[01:00:58] They've been doing this for a thousand years

[01:01:02] How did they do it so I begin to research

[01:01:06] And discovered you know what why not?

[01:01:12] and

[01:01:13] Everybody said well that's not gonna work because you need to do this and that and I said, you know what?

[01:01:18] We have to be more inventive and that we will work toward that end

[01:01:25] It cost a little bit more

[01:01:28] But we didn't have the expense of the chemicals

[01:01:33] So an article had been written about you that drew attention

[01:01:37] To the success of the Pinot Noir especially of Sanford and Benedict and that article came out in 1978

[01:01:44] There

[01:01:46] Was some noise about this first wines we were making in

[01:01:52] 1976

[01:01:54] Pinot Noir and you know at that time we weren't marketing anything

[01:02:01] But people just came up the driveway they heard about it

[01:02:05] and

[01:02:06] so finally

[01:02:09] Robert Lawrence Balzer wrote in his

[01:02:14] newsletter

[01:02:17] Grand Cru in Alampoke Barn

[01:02:20] That was the article

[01:02:23] That was the bell ringer that that really told people about what was going on in our place

[01:02:28] I think that this inspired other people to plant in our region

[01:02:36] It had been pretty lonely out there for many years, you know from in the early 70s

[01:02:42] And I'll always remember

[01:02:46] At Sanford and Benedict

[01:02:49] Being invited to bring

[01:02:53] my wine to a tasting at the California Vintage Wine Society and

[01:03:00] I was invited to the California Club in downtown Los Angeles

[01:03:05] Which at that time was a pretty hrumphy red leather

[01:03:09] cigar smoke place it was a

[01:03:13] Little bit stuffy at the time it's changed now there are they allow women

[01:03:19] But

[01:03:21] I'm invited to come and present the wine so I arrived and

[01:03:30] Am ushered into

[01:03:32] This immense ballroom. I don't know if you know the place, but it's a beautifully designed structure brick

[01:03:40] and

[01:03:41] They have a beautiful

[01:03:44] main ballroom with chandeliers and

[01:03:47] white tablecloths and I

[01:03:50] Come into this space and I'm completely intimidated with

[01:03:54] the chandeliers and it's just little me and all these harumping people and

[01:04:02] So we sit down and the wine is poured

[01:04:07] There's a lot of swirling and sniffing and gargling

[01:04:13] Then all of a sudden someone says

[01:04:16] son of a bitch and

[01:04:19] I thought to myself. Oh, they don't like my wine

[01:04:24] But I soon learned it was a term of endearment

[01:04:27] This was Hernando Courtright. I believe who was the owner of the Beverly Hills Hotel

[01:04:34] And he said finally a Burgundy from California

[01:04:38] and I still have tears about that because

[01:04:42] that was

[01:04:44] really the culmination of

[01:04:46] All that

[01:04:48] ten years of effort to get the vineyard established and I had my communication with Dick Kraft and he was involved in

[01:04:58] Shalom

[01:05:00] there were other

[01:05:01] wine makers

[01:05:04] Who

[01:05:06] were new and

[01:05:10] Dick created something quite special called the small winery technical society

[01:05:16] a big deal name for a small little group of young winemakers

[01:05:23] but we would get together a

[01:05:26] Couple of times a year to taste each other's wines and give our critical opinion

[01:05:36] Without being nasty and this group included Jeffrey Patterson Ken Wright Steve Dorner Josh Jensen

[01:05:43] These were all people who were interested in Pinot Noir

[01:05:46] and we all became comrades and there was a really interesting and

[01:05:52] curious and continues to this day

[01:05:55] Levy about

[01:05:57] Wine makers and

[01:05:59] the

[01:06:01] camaraderie that we all have and

[01:06:03] Or out for the same goal, but we are competitors, too

[01:06:08] So it's a curious

[01:06:10] Situation to be competitors and love one another and

[01:06:15] and

[01:06:17] sometimes creates tension, but generally

[01:06:21] We all shared information together and we wanted each other

[01:06:26] To succeed it was a wonderful period of time because we were pretty innocent about

[01:06:35] stuff

[01:06:37] It wasn't high pressure

[01:06:40] Wasn't corporate it was just

[01:06:43] some people were passionate about what they were doing and trying to do the best job that could and

[01:06:51] To this day I'm friends with them all

[01:06:56] And it was especially close to Josh Jensen and

[01:07:03] We would have wonderful times together our families we get together with our kids

[01:07:08] And it was a really magical time for us building our businesses and

[01:07:15] Having the challenges of marketing the wine and so forth

[01:07:21] along this period

[01:07:24] Dick Graff called me one day and said

[01:07:29] Richard I have some people coming to visit and

[01:07:33] They're Francophiles

[01:07:37] They don't really believe in California wine

[01:07:40] But I need to show them what's happening here in California, we've got to change their focus and opinion

[01:07:47] And I said, okay just bring them by

[01:07:51] It turned out it was Julia and Paul child

[01:07:56] Julia just come back

[01:08:00] From France she was settling in Cambridge

[01:08:04] Coming out to California to take a look because her family had been from Pasadena and she had experience in Santa Barbara

[01:08:13] as a child

[01:08:14] So I went home to my wife who had a two-year-old

[01:08:21] Hanging on her apron and I said guess who's coming to lunch

[01:08:27] And when I said Julia child she almost dropped

[01:08:30] And here

[01:08:33] Julia as we know her now would have been

[01:08:37] happy with a peanut butter sandwich, but

[01:08:40] We did it all up as it was everything was overdone. I was trying so hard

[01:08:47] But the serious thing is

[01:08:50] That dick was able to show

[01:08:53] his wines and

[01:08:55] our sandwiches

[01:08:57] His wines and our Sanford and Benedict wines

[01:09:03] To their great acclaim we changed their perception of American wine at that time I feel

[01:09:12] Julia became very close friends with us

[01:09:16] She would come to our house on the ranch for Christmas dinner

[01:09:21] And we had a wonderful relationship together

[01:09:24] And a great spokesperson for us and

[01:09:29] supporter

[01:09:31] And we became very involved in the American Institute of wine and food together

[01:09:37] But she and Paul

[01:09:42] curse Paul

[01:09:43] faltered and developed

[01:09:47] Some issues and had to go into a home

[01:09:51] and we became

[01:09:53] And we became

[01:09:55] close to Julia and she would come to our house and we would visit her and then

[01:10:00] she went in herself to a

[01:10:03] place in Santa Barbara where we would visit her and

[01:10:08] Tecla was with her in the last moments of her life. So we had a wonderful long relationship

[01:10:16] But it was out of that little meeting and

[01:10:19] Through her you met the Mondavis

[01:10:22] Bob Mondavi was very interested in creating a degree in gastronomy

[01:10:29] And I was asked to participate with them

[01:10:33] In the creation of the American Institute of wine and food

[01:10:39] And that was going to be the vehicle for creating

[01:10:43] A degree in gastronomy

[01:10:48] and we would have meetings and

[01:10:51] And

[01:10:53] It was the whole thing was to develop an appreciation for food and wine

[01:10:58] independent of

[01:11:01] Just having it for fun that there was some seriousness about it and some

[01:11:10] Academic

[01:11:13] Pursuits in gastronomy and food and wine. I always remember our motto was

[01:11:21] Inter folia fructos

[01:11:24] Between the leaves is the honey or is the the sweetness

[01:11:30] We met Robert

[01:11:32] and Margaret when they came down for a meeting at Julia's. Julia did a

[01:11:39] series of

[01:11:40] tapes in Santa Barbara

[01:11:42] Called dinner with Julia where she would invite

[01:11:45] Guest chefs to come and prepare food and then

[01:11:49] Go through all the different dishes that she would prepare and we'd have a big dinner at the end

[01:11:55] And I was actually interviewed in one of her programs

[01:12:00] And she had this

[01:12:02] interesting

[01:12:05] Kitchen with the chefs

[01:12:08] then a discussion about wine and then

[01:12:11] The dinner together with the chefs and the winemakers

[01:12:15] Enjoying food together. It was a fun

[01:12:18] period

[01:12:20] to be with

[01:12:23] Sort of on the front end of food, I think this was the time

[01:12:29] Alice waters was developing her shape on these and

[01:12:34] Michael mccarty was very active in his michael's restaurant

[01:12:39] And gastronomy was really coming in to its own

[01:12:45] It's all kind of glittery, you know, it was just sort of a wonderful period

[01:12:51] That food was coming of age in america that we had been

[01:12:56] In a war situation before then and people didn't really understand

[01:13:02] food

[01:13:03] But we were on the cutting edge of some really special stuff happening

[01:13:09] It was fun. It was really fun to be there at that time

[01:13:15] But the reality is is it is a hard business

[01:13:19] The vineyard you've been talking about up until now is sanford and benedict is what it's called today

[01:13:23] But subsequently over several decades you planted

[01:13:27] Nearby and then in the region other vineyards and totaling that's about 400 acres. Yes

[01:13:35] Well

[01:13:40] It was an exciting time and there was growth potential and there was land

[01:13:47] And it's been a challenge

[01:13:52] Levy that uh, we had this experience at sanford and benedict and then

[01:13:59] After a few years of wine making together it turned out it was very hard to make wine by committee with a partner

[01:14:06] And

[01:14:08] So I decided

[01:14:11] that I couldn't continue with my partner, mr. Benedict and

[01:14:19] i'll always

[01:14:20] remember returning home in tears to my wife saying

[01:14:25] It's just not going to work out and it was really a divorce

[01:14:31] But it was a deep-seated feeling because so much of my

[01:14:37] Soul

[01:14:39] Was in that vineyard

[01:14:41] I where I lived there and I had established the vineyard

[01:14:45] And loved the place

[01:14:47] And had great confidence in it, but

[01:14:51] Couldn't get along with the partner

[01:14:53] So just for example you lived there for seven years with no electricity with gas lamps and you

[01:14:58] Yourself was the one that put in the telephone line

[01:15:00] You did own rooted dry farms, which was not the easiest thing to do in terms of dry farming california originally

[01:15:07] And then you moved it to organics and you did things like mix peanut butter with pieces of soil

[01:15:13] To try to attract ants to get rid of mealy bugs. You're pretty experimental

[01:15:18] and then you had

[01:15:20] a breakdown in communication with your partner in the founding of this now iconic vineyard and you decided there needed to be a change

[01:15:27] And you decided there needed to be a change

[01:15:31] It was tragic it was really hard

[01:15:34] One of the hardest things ever ever done

[01:15:37] Is to leave that place?

[01:15:41] And I would go back to that vineyard

[01:15:44] in the meantime

[01:15:46] we just had to

[01:15:49] Pick ourselves up dust ourselves off and get going again

[01:15:54] In my own personal development. I had developed a great interest in eastern philosophy

[01:16:02] As you remember I had given up on on my culture and my religion so

[01:16:08] finding myself quite spiritual

[01:16:10] I began to

[01:16:12] participate in tai chi. I was enamored by

[01:16:16] Tai chi the moving meditation

[01:16:19] And I would go to esalen esalen

[01:16:23] You remember the human potential movement?

[01:16:26] And I would study with chung liang wong

[01:16:29] Who was a tai chi master?

[01:16:34] Chung liang was a very good friend of alan watts

[01:16:39] Who wrote a book called the water course way it's been very important to me that

[01:16:45] Really in my life when I come across conflicts

[01:16:50] I think about water moving and how water works. It goes around the obstructions

[01:16:57] rather than through

[01:17:00] When you have an obstruction

[01:17:04] You just have to deal with it and go around it

[01:17:08] Leaving california for a voyage to burgundy

[01:17:12] and

[01:17:13] probably one of the finest

[01:17:15] days of winemaking in my life was when

[01:17:19] I asked pam if I could have an introduction to vincent lafleve

[01:17:25] And he was probably my age at that time

[01:17:27] And I went to be with him for an entire day

[01:17:32] And learned so much in one day from that master

[01:17:37] We'll hear the lessons learned in burgundy in just a moment

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[01:18:45] In between your leaving sanford and benedict winery and being separated with sanford and benedict the vineyard

[01:18:52] And then subsequently starting the sanford winery

[01:18:56] You met the sister of a barrel broker whose name was roz

[01:19:03] Jim boswell was a barrel broker at that time

[01:19:08] Roz was a wine broker

[01:19:10] Roswell was a barrel broker at that time

[01:19:15] Roz

[01:19:17] Is jim's sister?

[01:19:19] She happened to be married to jacques sess

[01:19:24] And so that gave us entree

[01:19:27] to a burgundy connection

[01:19:29] In meeting jacques s we were able to go into the cellars of those people and understand more about winemaking

[01:19:37] I was able to check out

[01:19:42] different practices

[01:19:44] in the meantime

[01:19:47] Julia had come to dinner and

[01:19:51] It turned out that pam de valen

[01:19:55] His family grew up in pasadena

[01:19:59] And they were friends of julia

[01:20:02] So we had a dinner in santa barbara and invited julia

[01:20:07] pam's mother

[01:20:08] So pam and aubert de belen came for dinner

[01:20:12] And so that became our connection with burgundy

[01:20:18] No better connection than that to get started

[01:20:21] and so

[01:20:23] Again, it was a magical experience to be connected with these

[01:20:27] wonderful people and you know the thing about the wine business is that

[01:20:33] There are a lot of really interesting and wonderful people involved

[01:20:38] And we became friends with them all and went to

[01:20:43] demend the roman economy and

[01:20:46] had a fabulous tasting and

[01:20:49] Went to their home and enjoyed being together

[01:20:53] In bouzeran, they had just moved to bouseran and

[01:20:57] He was growing ala goete in bouseran it was delicious wine

[01:21:04] and

[01:21:05] probably one of the finest

[01:21:07] days of wine making in my life was when

[01:21:11] I asked pam if I could have an introduction to vincent le fleuve

[01:21:16] And he was probably my age at that time

[01:21:21] And I went to be with him for an entire day

[01:21:25] And learned so much in one day from that master

[01:21:31] Him climbing up on his tanks

[01:21:34] To draw out some of the most beautiful chardonnay wine for me to try and this is still main le fleuve

[01:21:40] And it was just inspirational and can you continues?

[01:21:44] Actually gives me tears to think about it was so special

[01:21:51] Specifically what do you think you picked up from vincent le fleuve in terms of wine making and what do you think you picked up?

[01:21:56] from jock stace in terms of winemaking

[01:21:59] I understood uh from

[01:22:03] Vincent le fleuve the importance of fining

[01:22:07] And natural fining and milk finding because we hadn't done milk finding before

[01:22:12] And i'm a fan of that

[01:22:15] from jock says I recognized

[01:22:19] In his cellars in demain du jacques, there was a hole in the ground in the cellar as a sump

[01:22:29] Where the gravity

[01:22:31] Flow the wine into the sump

[01:22:36] And I always wrestled with that because I was a fan of gravity

[01:22:42] And that really became the inspiration

[01:22:44] when I built sanford winery

[01:22:47] to have these

[01:22:50] Giant tanks on elevator shafts that would go up and down

[01:22:56] I call it an infinite gravity machine

[01:23:00] because

[01:23:01] The wine would go from the cellar into the sump

[01:23:05] And then elevated to the second floor and then drained back into

[01:23:11] The shea the barrel room

[01:23:13] And to this day sanford winery creates a gravity flow wine

[01:23:19] And it's quite special for pinot noir because

[01:23:23] Unlike cabernet, which will take some rough treatment and

[01:23:29] pumping around

[01:23:32] Pinot noir tends to bruise easily

[01:23:35] And I always like to be gentle with the wine

[01:23:38] So this is sanford the winery that you started that's in the same general area as the sanford and benedict

[01:23:45] vineyard

[01:23:46] And you did this in the 80s

[01:23:49] When we left sanford and benedict

[01:23:55] I

[01:23:56] Returned home to tecla and said that this isn't working out

[01:24:02] But the sanford and benedict vineyard became an obsession with me and I would go and visit it every day

[01:24:09] And saw it go into decline

[01:24:13] And

[01:24:15] Tecla said you've got to leave it alone if it's

[01:24:18] going to come back to you it will but

[01:24:22] You just have to give it up

[01:24:24] and i've learned in life that

[01:24:27] There are some things that you really have to work on giving up

[01:24:31] And moving on

[01:24:33] So finally I gave up and moved on

[01:24:37] And curiously

[01:24:40] as we were

[01:24:42] trying to prepare ourselves to

[01:24:45] Plant some additional vineyards on an adjoining ranch

[01:24:49] When I left sanford and benedict there were grapes to buy so we could start buying grapes to be in business

[01:24:56] When I started sanford and benedict there weren't any grapes. So we had to create our own

[01:25:00] grapes

[01:25:03] But by then there were enough vineyards and I knew all the vineyard growers

[01:25:07] And I could select some of the finest that I knew

[01:25:10] to make our wines

[01:25:13] But I still wanted to continue developing

[01:25:17] Vineyards and build a winery

[01:25:20] So there was a ranch next to sanford and benedict called the renny ranch

[01:25:26] And I became a partner with the renny family

[01:25:30] And then I was able to develop vineyards on that property that's called the

[01:25:35] ranconada ranch

[01:25:37] Which adjoined sanford and joined sanford and benedict some of the hillside is similar soil and material

[01:25:44] All that wonderful shirt gravelly

[01:25:48] Gravel clay loom

[01:25:51] And an english gentleman who had gone to school at berkeley

[01:25:54] Expressed some interest to you about a project

[01:25:57] There was a gentleman

[01:26:01] Named robert atkin who had gone to berkeley

[01:26:05] He was from london

[01:26:08] And he had abilities

[01:26:11] with money

[01:26:13] and he came

[01:26:15] looking

[01:26:16] to invest

[01:26:18] In a winery

[01:26:20] In in a vineyard

[01:26:23] And I thought

[01:26:24] Hmm, what a perfect timing

[01:26:28] Because we were developing sanford winery in the vineyard at the time. We had not built the winery yet

[01:26:34] And we needed a partner

[01:26:37] So I made the pitch I went to london we became close friends with robert and janice

[01:26:45] And we would go to london and go to the bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah of theirs

[01:26:51] And had a wonderful time and experience together

[01:26:55] And I made my pro formas and put them together

[01:27:01] In the meantime said robert there is a vineyard here that you should be aware of

[01:27:08] That um could potentially be for sale

[01:27:15] And by that time it was 10 years after my separation with

[01:27:20] Mr. Benedict it had not gone well

[01:27:25] so

[01:27:26] I became

[01:27:29] The quiet

[01:27:31] silent negotiator

[01:27:33] For robert in the purchase of the sanford and benedict vineyard

[01:27:39] and

[01:27:41] It was astonishing

[01:27:44] Levy after having left that place 10 years later

[01:27:48] To have it returned to me

[01:27:51] I mean it was astounding

[01:27:54] And it just

[01:27:57] Went to show me that tecla was right and she said

[01:28:00] If it's meant to be it will happen

[01:28:04] And was sort of magical that we had

[01:28:07] those grapes

[01:28:08] To use in our own mind making

[01:28:11] for the next 30 years

[01:28:15] and so I continued to develop the

[01:28:18] Vineyards there and then thought you know with all these vineyards. Why don't we have the winery?

[01:28:23] Here in the meantime tecla and I had purchased a

[01:28:26] Ranch down the road

[01:28:30] that

[01:28:31] We felt we were going to build a winery on but with all the grapes

[01:28:35] Around the sanford and benedict vineyard. We thought well the binary should be in that location

[01:28:42] So that became

[01:28:45] My effort in trying to figure out how I wanted my winery to be

[01:28:52] And I wanted to use all natural material that came from the place i'm really interested in

[01:29:01] using

[01:29:02] native materials

[01:29:04] From the place rather than importing a bunch of stuff for the construction of the physical space physical structure

[01:29:10] construction

[01:29:12] And

[01:29:14] So I took two years to

[01:29:18] Plan and design this space

[01:29:21] Thing about how I wanted to make it

[01:29:26] so I

[01:29:27] am enamored by

[01:29:29] the mission period not what they did to the

[01:29:32] Native people, but just

[01:29:34] the technology they created these

[01:29:37] beautiful structures

[01:29:39] Out of thin air. They were just right from the place

[01:29:44] So I went to arizona and studied adobe

[01:29:48] making

[01:29:49] And that was a fun experience to figure out

[01:29:52] The technology of making an adobe structure

[01:29:56] earthquake proof in our region

[01:30:00] And so

[01:30:02] Truly we ended up making a hundred thousand adobe block

[01:30:06] Right there on the ranch and I learned that adobe was largely

[01:30:10] sand

[01:30:12] That it was held together by a clay matrix

[01:30:16] So

[01:30:18] I was lucky enough to find

[01:30:21] An old mill in clickitat, washington

[01:30:26] And I was looking for

[01:30:28] timber for timber frame structure

[01:30:33] So all the roof are these beautiful purlins and beams made from

[01:30:41] Lumber that we purchased from the mill in clickitat, washington

[01:30:46] 62

[01:30:47] semis with timber

[01:30:50] came to deposit

[01:30:52] at the

[01:30:54] Sanford winery and each of the truckers said

[01:30:58] that

[01:30:59] People he had encountered along the road had offered to buy the timbers from him

[01:31:07] I bought

[01:31:09] A wood-mizer sawmill

[01:31:12] On the property to mill

[01:31:16] The material into our specifications

[01:31:19] It was really an exciting time

[01:31:22] But I got a bit ahead of myself

[01:31:25] and the winery

[01:31:27] Turned out cost twice as much as I had planned

[01:31:32] I had sanford you made sanford and benedict

[01:31:36] Vineyard chardonnay and pina noir to some acclaim

[01:31:40] And you also made a sauvignon blanc to some acclaim

[01:31:44] The sauvignon blanc

[01:31:46] was

[01:31:47] an opportunity to have a second white wine because

[01:31:51] all of our vineyards

[01:31:53] Were chardonnay or pina noir

[01:32:00] and

[01:32:02] So I was able to purchase some wonderful sauvignon blanc from the sierra madre vineyard

[01:32:07] in santa maria

[01:32:10] And we made

[01:32:12] A lot of sauvignon blanc and it went very well. It sold beautifully

[01:32:18] Until about 1985

[01:32:22] And it's curious in our region, you know, there was a lot of development in

[01:32:27] vineyard activity

[01:32:30] When I started out levy there were

[01:32:34] People who were making investments in vineyard development

[01:32:39] There were butcher paper signs in

[01:32:42] Los Angeles

[01:32:44] windows vineyard investment

[01:32:47] 80 right off the first year

[01:32:50] So a lot of doctors and lawyers and people were

[01:32:54] business people

[01:32:56] Of course, they would invest because there were all these losses available

[01:33:01] Well grape growing is a long-term deal. And so when these vineyards were planted

[01:33:08] And they didn't produce up to the expectation and generally

[01:33:13] I think that's true that the vineyard never produces as much as you want in the early years

[01:33:18] It cost a lot more

[01:33:21] And so when there was a call that came out for more investment

[01:33:26] The investors had taken their right off. They were not interested in investing anymore

[01:33:32] And so a lot of the vineyards went to the funding agency

[01:33:36] And so a lot of the vineyards went to the funding agencies and it turned out that

[01:33:41] The largest owners of vineyards in santa barbara county were prudential life insurance and bank of america

[01:33:50] And they held on they did not want to be in the

[01:33:53] great business

[01:33:56] And in the meantime

[01:33:58] In the late 70s and early 80s

[01:34:01] With all this beautiful chardonnay that was planted in this region

[01:34:06] The napa wineries became aware and would be buying all of our grapes

[01:34:14] Frankly to upgrade the quality of their wines

[01:34:18] Until such time as the demand came

[01:34:22] And the price was correct

[01:34:24] for these

[01:34:25] funding agencies

[01:34:27] To sell the vineyards and there was one year. I think it was 85

[01:34:34] that robert mondavi

[01:34:36] kendall jackson

[01:34:37] in beringer came and purchased all the vineyards that were available from the

[01:34:42] life insurance companies

[01:34:46] And I always remember

[01:34:48] Calling tim mondavi to ask if I could buy

[01:34:52] A pitiful amount of sauvignon blanc to keep my program at sanford going

[01:34:59] In which he said we view you as a competitor now richard

[01:35:04] And so he didn't sell any grapes

[01:35:07] And so that was a struggle for us to keep our sauvignon blanc program going

[01:35:15] But we had to be resourceful and we went out and find additional fruit, but you do that and

[01:35:24] You know

[01:35:25] after all the planting that had happened and I was

[01:35:28] knowledgeable about all the different

[01:35:31] Vineyardists I was able to purchase fruit from some very high quality vineyards

[01:35:37] And that even today is really remarkable to have such beautiful grapes

[01:35:42] So that anybody

[01:35:44] Can purchase grapes and be in the wine business. It's easy

[01:35:50] It's harder to stay in the wine business

[01:35:53] And robert told you, you know, that's a good wine but it takes a while to build a brand I have to say

[01:36:01] I was so nervous

[01:36:03] I had to meet robert mondavi because he was such a

[01:36:08] force

[01:36:10] He was very nice to us and we went to lunch together and I brought my sauvignon blanc that we had made

[01:36:18] and

[01:36:19] He said I like your wine very much richard

[01:36:23] But it will take you 20 years to build the brand

[01:36:27] And I said, oh no

[01:36:30] What do you know you old man

[01:36:33] I always laugh at that because I was a youngster

[01:36:37] And sure enough he was right it took 20 years to build the brand

[01:36:43] So you worked with sanford and benedict fruit for about three decades

[01:36:47] And you also sold some of that fruit to other producers who made wine and you made an arrangement with them to taste those wines

[01:36:55] 91 92 you'd get together with the other producers of sanford benedict fruit

[01:36:59] And you would talk about how it was going for them and how it was going for you

[01:37:03] And levy when I got the vineyard back finally

[01:37:08] I recognized that

[01:37:10] We really did need to establish irrigation in the vineyard. It wasn't it wasn't working to dry farm it

[01:37:19] In the meantime some of the producers in our region been purchasing grapes

[01:37:26] And uh when I got the vineyard back

[01:37:29] They said well can't we have a few grapes

[01:37:33] Because they had recognized the quality of the grapes coming from the vineyard

[01:37:38] And I was kind of a jerk about it. Frankly. I said, you know what?

[01:37:44] I planted these grapes. I haven't had them for 10 years

[01:37:48] These are my grapes and i'm gonna i'm going to use them in our wine making

[01:37:53] And finally

[01:37:56] Tecla said oh

[01:37:58] Won't you sell so and so actually frank costini at ten and a half or something?

[01:38:04] and frank

[01:38:05] Actually would say to this day that

[01:38:08] He appreciates tecla so much allowing him to buy some fruit, but I finally recognized that

[01:38:15] Here was an opportunity

[01:38:17] to create

[01:38:19] What we had in our small

[01:38:21] Villa winery technical society the same concept to have

[01:38:26] I chose six different

[01:38:28] winemakers

[01:38:30] To sell grapes to but the stipulation that we would get together quarterly

[01:38:39] And talk about wine making together

[01:38:42] Teach each other of wines

[01:38:44] Without being offensive. Just say how you felt about it

[01:38:48] and

[01:38:50] Some winemakers were struggling they had some challenges, but they learned I think from that experience how to overcome them

[01:38:58] So it was really a wonderful period a couple years to get together and talk about it

[01:39:05] Then it became a little bit more difficult as time went on

[01:39:10] And we kind of drifted apart

[01:39:12] What do you think you learned about sanford and benedict fruit in white and red?

[01:39:18] Over the period of time that you worked with the fruit from the sanford and benedict vineyard

[01:39:23] The thing about

[01:39:24] Our growing area in the santa beria hills

[01:39:29] With the cooler climate and the coastal fogs

[01:39:35] And

[01:39:37] The pacific ocean

[01:39:40] Is only nine miles to the south and about 14 miles to the west

[01:39:45] So we were

[01:39:47] Really protected by the pacific ocean

[01:39:51] fogs come in the morning

[01:39:54] In different times of the year, it's cool

[01:39:58] And it always gets the ocean breeze

[01:40:02] So the wines are bright there's an acidity to them. It is so remarkable

[01:40:09] And we very seldom would have to acidulate the wines

[01:40:14] So the wines are on their own acid which is much better than tartaric or any other kind of acid you could add

[01:40:20] And that gives this wonderful

[01:40:24] bright expression

[01:40:27] And i've tried to pinpoint what it is about the pinot noir and to me there is

[01:40:36] Almost a spicy nutmeg character

[01:40:40] That defines the thread

[01:40:42] that connects

[01:40:44] all the producers of

[01:40:46] Pinot noir from sanford and benedict

[01:40:49] There have been a number of winemakers who have made some beautiful wines from that vineyard

[01:40:54] Sadly completely out of my price range now

[01:40:58] I would love to have more

[01:41:00] But um can't afford it

[01:41:03] But it's wonderful to see that vineyard performing so beautifully even though I don't own it anymore

[01:41:10] And the original plantings were own rooted. And how did you experience working with own rooted fruit versus grafted?

[01:41:17] The own rooted fruit

[01:41:20] Has more character

[01:41:23] I found over time that the

[01:41:27] Gravelly soils of sanford and benedict

[01:41:30] provide that leanness

[01:41:33] And as i've planted new vineyards in

[01:41:36] More clay-like soils

[01:41:39] That the pinot noir expresses

[01:41:43] In a clay loam soil

[01:41:46] It has a bigger

[01:41:49] More luscious character and I like the leanness of the sanford and benedict frankly

[01:41:55] Chardonnay

[01:41:58] Can be made in many different styles and that's the beauty of chardonnay in santa barbara county

[01:42:04] it is

[01:42:05] The great for this region

[01:42:07] It makes beautiful wines

[01:42:10] And it can be steered more toward a chablis style bright

[01:42:15] Crisp acid

[01:42:18] Or we've experimented brunner and I used to make a wine we would call barrel select and that was

[01:42:25] Barrel fermented new barrels and aged

[01:42:29] And it gets to the point where it's very over oaked. But if you leave it long enough

[01:42:34] It becomes very mercile like it's really wonderful

[01:42:39] creamy

[01:42:41] And it's long finish

[01:42:44] Tecla was at the hitching post to restaurant and she met someone else that was also there and his name was rex

[01:42:52] Oh, that's funny I was on a trip I think to new york

[01:42:57] And she said I met this person at the hitching post

[01:43:02] And he says

[01:43:04] We're going to be in the book he's writing

[01:43:08] It turned out

[01:43:10] The book was sideways. It was rex pickett

[01:43:13] He used to hang out at the hitching post

[01:43:17] That was her first meeting with rex

[01:43:21] and not long thereafter

[01:43:25] Frank costini the owner of the hitching coast calls me

[01:43:29] and said

[01:43:32] Alexander pain is going to make a movie

[01:43:35] Of this guy rex pickett's book

[01:43:38] sideways

[01:43:41] And it's about

[01:43:44] Depression and alcoholism

[01:43:46] and he said

[01:43:47] Do we want to be involved? And I said to frank, you know what?

[01:43:52] it sounds a little suspicious to me, but

[01:43:55] let's check it out and

[01:43:58] Alexander he said you will not be shown in a bad light

[01:44:03] And so we thought well

[01:44:07] The reason that rex pickett wrote us into the book is the quality of her wine

[01:44:12] And so I felt that we should support this

[01:44:17] and in fact

[01:44:18] alexander

[01:44:20] Was very happy to see all the places that rex had

[01:44:23] written into the book

[01:44:25] Were wonderful places to be in the movie

[01:44:29] And so the movie was really unusual and that was not on a stage. It was in real place

[01:44:37] We had a

[01:44:39] Chris burrows

[01:44:41] Was a wonderful person he always wore a cowboy hat

[01:44:47] And he was our

[01:44:49] tasting room manager

[01:44:52] And he was in that first scene where they arrive in the san dines valley and go to a wine tasting and

[01:45:00] I'll remember he poured some

[01:45:03] Vangri it was a rose

[01:45:07] And

[01:45:09] He's in the movie he had to join the

[01:45:13] Actors guild for that and it's incredible the number of people who came just to take a picture of the place

[01:45:21] And take a picture of chris

[01:45:25] By the way, I said to the people we were making wine before sideways

[01:45:33] But I think it really put pina noir

[01:45:38] on a map

[01:45:39] And it introduced a wider audience to the beauty of pina noir

[01:45:45] I am old enough to have worked with sanford wines when you own the winery

[01:45:50] And one of the things that I really remember about it in addition to the popularity of the wines

[01:45:55] Was the popularity of the labels the physical labels on the bottles and what was the backstory to those labels being created?

[01:46:05] Oh, levy that labeling has been

[01:46:08] a challenge

[01:46:12] I remember, um creating the label for sanford and benedict vineyard

[01:46:18] And we used a beautiful tree

[01:46:21] It was in the vineyard sebastian titus was a friend. He was an artist in napa valley did a number of different

[01:46:30] Pen and ink sketches in napa. He did a calendar. He did the books about napa wineries

[01:46:37] And he was a label creator for a number of different wineries in napa he was a friend

[01:46:45] And he did the original

[01:46:48] pen and ink

[01:46:49] sketch of the tree that was at sanford and benedict

[01:46:53] And michael and I thought very

[01:46:57] hard about the label

[01:47:00] in fact, uh, the label says

[01:47:04] grown produced and bottled

[01:47:08] Bottled in the

[01:47:12] coastal hills of san inez valley by sanford and benedict wine growers at lompoc

[01:47:20] by the way, lompoc was a

[01:47:22] established as a temperance colony

[01:47:26] so we were wine producers in a

[01:47:29] Temperance area, excuse me a chuckle sometimes

[01:47:34] But curiously

[01:47:39] Or ironically

[01:47:42] The year after I left sanford and benedict the tree collapsed

[01:47:49] So it's no longer

[01:47:52] so as we began to develop the sanford label

[01:47:57] We thought wildflowers would be our theme

[01:48:02] And sebastian would come down every year in the spring

[01:48:08] And we would wander around

[01:48:11] And choose the wildflower for the next vintage

[01:48:14] Typically we would have

[01:48:17] A yellow flower on the chardonnay

[01:48:20] And a blue flower on the sauvignon blanc lupin. I remember

[01:48:27] And a red flower on the pinot noir

[01:48:30] And so we continued that program

[01:48:35] Of changing wildflowers each year

[01:48:41] Until we left the winery

[01:48:43] in

[01:48:47] 2006

[01:48:50] There were some cost overruns with the construction of the sanford winery

[01:48:54] There was a projection for what it might cost to build the facility. There was a reality of what it cost

[01:49:00] You took on a partner to help recoup some of that cost and provide for a balanced budget

[01:49:06] And eventually that partner took over and you were no longer at the sanford winery

[01:49:13] That is correct

[01:49:15] And that was a challenge for us

[01:49:19] It was really of my own making that I was so enthusiastic about

[01:49:25] Building a place

[01:49:27] Without compromise and that's been important to me

[01:49:32] And I did just that

[01:49:34] That place is built

[01:49:38] thoughtfully

[01:49:39] all out of native material

[01:49:42] without compromise

[01:49:45] And it just cost too much

[01:49:48] And I went through years of

[01:49:54] Financial challenges always having to have partners and the challenge for our business is either

[01:50:02] investment partners or banks

[01:50:05] And I went through a period of 24 percent interest rates and had to

[01:50:11] maneuver through that period

[01:50:15] But for us the real challenge

[01:50:19] Was

[01:50:22] the value of real estate that I would always

[01:50:26] Use the real estate

[01:50:28] as a leverage to get more debt and

[01:50:32] As you know the wine business

[01:50:35] Is one of the most

[01:50:37] Costly activities because we have to build inventories to hold to be able to re-release

[01:50:47] So

[01:50:49] The carrying costs of the business are immense

[01:50:53] And I was lucky to have banks supporting me

[01:50:58] And we were with silicon valley bank, which was a wonderful outfit

[01:51:02] Rob mcmillan was a great

[01:51:05] partner and

[01:51:06] Lovely person and they had their challenges

[01:51:12] We had challenges when

[01:51:14] Challenges when

[01:51:17] The real estate market collapsed and a lot of our leverage based on real estate values

[01:51:26] And a distributor who

[01:51:30] Signed up to take

[01:51:32] 10 000 cases of chardonnay and 5 000 cases of pinot noir

[01:51:37] But couldn't pay

[01:51:40] So some glitches like that were

[01:51:45] Unknown and a challenge

[01:51:50] But nonetheless

[01:51:52] We have sort of dusted ourselves off and started over again a number of times

[01:52:02] And after leaving sanford, uh, we

[01:52:08] Decided to create the alma rosa winery

[01:52:11] Uh, you started alma rosa and the vineyards are really pretty much down the road from the other

[01:52:17] Projects you've been involved with in the same region

[01:52:21] One of the things about you is you've spent a lot of time

[01:52:25] Developing vineyard sites that are not that far from each other

[01:52:30] But at different periods different decades

[01:52:34] so

[01:52:35] What have you learned over time laying out different vineyards in different parts of the santa rita hills?

[01:52:41] I'm, so grateful

[01:52:44] That i've had the experience of

[01:52:48] Developing specific vineyard sites

[01:52:52] over a period of time

[01:52:55] Each separated by about a decade

[01:52:59] And over time

[01:53:01] Different clones have become available into the market

[01:53:04] You remember there was a period

[01:53:07] In the 70s where there were suitcase clones and people would bring clones from

[01:53:16] Vineyards in europe and it's pretty easy. You just take a cutting from a

[01:53:19] Vine and you put it in your suitcase and come home if you get caught with it. Well, it's not a good situation, but

[01:53:26] sadly, there are diseases that are

[01:53:29] moved around the world by

[01:53:32] grapevines being in suitcases, but

[01:53:36] What's happened over time as these new clones have been developed

[01:53:41] And allowing these clones to be developed by nurseries

[01:53:45] there's a whole

[01:53:47] Business around this now where there wasn't in the early days. We made our own

[01:53:52] Nurseries and created our own vines

[01:53:57] But there are

[01:53:59] nurseries today where you can buy a

[01:54:03] Grapevine that has a trunk already and put it in the ground and have grapes in two years

[01:54:11] But it's been fun to experiment with the different clones as they become available because the first clones were

[01:54:18] as i've told you the

[01:54:22] Napagami that very upright

[01:54:25] Clone which is really Valdez

[01:54:29] And the

[01:54:31] Mount Eden clone, which was

[01:54:34] from Mount Eden

[01:54:37] There's the

[01:54:39] Burgundy clones, there's the six six seven seven seven seven

[01:54:44] It's

[01:54:46] Not very romantic all these different numbers, but at least they're specific about the different

[01:54:53] Clones and so

[01:54:55] the

[01:54:57] Sanford and benedict was on its old old clones and then the rinconada

[01:55:01] We were able to use mostly Wente and the Chardonnay

[01:55:08] Clone 76 for Chardonnay

[01:55:11] And there were the Burgundy clones of six six seven and seven seven seven available

[01:55:20] And then when we went on to plant the

[01:55:23] La Encantada vineyard, which is by the way named after my grandfather's ranch in Coahuila in Mexico

[01:55:31] means enchanted place

[01:55:35] We planted the swan clone

[01:55:38] We plant a little pinot blanc and pinot gris to go ferment with the pinot noir and of course

[01:55:48] 114 and 115

[01:55:52] And then as we planted out the

[01:55:57] El Jabali ranch

[01:56:00] We actually sold

[01:56:03] Alma Rosa and the ranch to Bob and Barbara Zorich

[01:56:10] And he's put a huge amount of enthusiasm and effort into planting additional vineyards and I'm

[01:56:18] very grateful to have

[01:56:21] Planted those vineyards for him

[01:56:24] So you have dusted yourself off and

[01:56:27] Picked up and gone down the road multiple times to start new wineries

[01:56:31] in the decades that you've been in Santa Rita Hills, and I think one of the frustrations that you have is that

[01:56:38] Your name is on a project that you're no longer associated with

[01:56:42] How do you feel about that?

[01:56:45] We were trying to figure out a name for

[01:56:49] Sanford and Benedict Robert Balzer said it sounds like a law firm

[01:56:54] And

[01:56:56] I always remember sitting in my pickup truck at the bottom of San Marcos Pass with Michael and my girlfriend

[01:57:04] at the time

[01:57:06] And what really pushed the decision making about our name was

[01:57:14] having to apply for

[01:57:16] an

[01:57:18] Bond

[01:57:20] And we had to come up with a name and finally

[01:57:26] Michael said

[01:57:27] Richard was your idea. Your name should be first

[01:57:32] And I think that was very thoughtful of him to say

[01:57:37] And that's why it became Sanford and Benedict

[01:57:41] When I left

[01:57:44] In 1981

[01:57:47] He was known for a while as the Benedict vineyard

[01:57:51] And there are some wines that have that but nothing lasts forever

[01:57:59] And I'm just grateful to have all the experience

[01:58:05] And it's been full of

[01:58:08] So much excitement and so much positive and so much heartache, but it's life happening

[01:58:15] And we just have to embrace it

[01:58:18] In large part you created a new region for Pinot Noir

[01:58:25] And some very successful Chardonnay as well

[01:58:28] And I just wonder I know your dad never saw that fully come to realization

[01:58:34] he died when you were still at Sanford and Benedict and

[01:58:37] There wasn't a lot of family communication after and I just wonder how that sits with you

[01:58:42] Has it been enough for you personally to say I did this

[01:58:47] You know

[01:58:52] Let me

[01:58:54] You always want people to recognize your good work

[01:58:59] And our egos are such that we want that

[01:59:03] support

[01:59:05] But I've learned along the way that the heartache part

[01:59:10] You can't overcome

[01:59:12] It's hard not to be recognized it's particularly hard to have

[01:59:22] Revisionist history to have people go back

[01:59:26] and redefine

[01:59:28] What someone has created?

[01:59:32] That's probably the hardest thing for me is to

[01:59:36] Have people change the story to benefit

[01:59:40] their interests

[01:59:42] Interests because the reality is

[01:59:48] The reality

[01:59:49] And that's misunderstood sometime

[01:59:55] Santa Barbara

[01:59:56] Pretty uh prosperous place these days property values are pretty high. Well, the wine country is pretty established

[02:00:04] How does that feel for you when you go into the hitching post and say hi to the bartender?

[02:00:08] And they recognize you and your pictures on the wall

[02:00:13] I'm very shy

[02:00:15] About all the accolades I was voted into the

[02:00:29] Winemakers hall of fame and I thought

[02:00:33] Why

[02:00:35] because

[02:00:36] I was just doing something I loved

[02:00:41] and

[02:00:42] Even today it's emotional

[02:00:45] That uh, i'm so moved to have

[02:00:49] Been recognized by my peers

[02:00:53] as a force

[02:00:57] And that's enough, you know, I don't have to have all the money in the world there's so much more to it

[02:01:06] Richard stanford has kept the emotion of making wine in santa barbara county. Thank you very much for being here today. You're welcome

[02:01:14] Appreciate it

[02:01:16] Appreciate it

[02:01:18] Richard stanford is the co-founder of the sanford and benedict winery planted the sanford and benedict vineyard

[02:01:24] Founded sanford winery and then founded almorosa in the santa rita hills of california

[02:01:32] All drink to that is hosted and produced by myself levy dalton

[02:01:36] Aaron scala has contributed original pieces

[02:01:39] Editorial assistance has been provided by bill kimsey

[02:01:42] The show music was performed and composed by rob moose and thomas bartlett show artwork by alicia tannoyan

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[02:02:43] This is the 500th episode of all drink to that

[02:02:47] Thanks for listening along with us for so many years now

[02:02:52] Many of the people discussed in this particular episode

[02:02:55] Have also been featured on the program and you can hear interviews with them in the back catalog of shows

[02:03:04] But we're always open to nature and the variabilities

[02:03:10] And we have no control over that and I have to laugh about that because

[02:03:15] That's a very Taoist perspective that

[02:03:19] You just have to let it happen and respect nature

[02:03:26] And respect the vagaries of nature and all it offers

[02:03:33] I remember crying when it rained on my crop

[02:03:37] I got over that

[02:03:40] But it's true that you are part of nature and wine is a product of nature

[02:03:45] And it takes huge respect for nature to work through it