499: David Rafanelli on Four Generations Making Wine in California

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[00:01:05] I'm Levy Dalton and this is All Drink To That where we get behind the scenes of the wine

[00:01:11] business.

[00:01:28] David Raffinelli of the A. Raffinelli Winery in Dry Creek Valley.

[00:01:32] Hello sir, how are you?

[00:01:33] Good morning.

[00:01:34] So your grandparents moved to California in the early 1900s.

[00:01:39] Correct.

[00:01:40] It was my grandmother that first came to California in 1903 through Ellis Island and came to

[00:01:46] California that same year.

[00:01:48] She knew from past conversations with people that had been to California that there

[00:01:55] were similar places in California that could raise grapes as they did in Tuscany and certain

[00:02:01] parts of France and so forth.

[00:02:03] So that's why she wanted to leave her country at 19 years old and try a new part of the

[00:02:10] world.

[00:02:12] When my grandmother landed in San Francisco, she got a job at a cigar factory.

[00:02:18] That's where she met my grandfather who also was from the same area but they met

[00:02:22] in San Francisco.

[00:02:25] She was still alive when you were a little kid.

[00:02:27] Yes, my mother died when I was two and a half of polio in 1952 and so my parents helped

[00:02:34] raise me until I was about nine until my dad remarried.

[00:02:39] What were your grandparents like?

[00:02:41] Typical Europeans, certainly new language at that point, new English but talked Italian

[00:02:48] quite a bit.

[00:02:50] Both enjoyed wine from their families and their past in Europe and so they sought out grapes

[00:02:57] from Northern Sonoma County to make their homemade wine in North Beach area.

[00:03:04] What kind of grapes were they had been working with at that time?

[00:03:07] They weren't making 100% Zinfandel although the major portion of their wine was Zinfandel

[00:03:13] but the Zinfandel blend, typical blend consisted of some petit zirah, some caraganin and maybe

[00:03:21] some a little granache.

[00:03:22] Every once in a while if the acidities weren't right they'd add one or two boxes per ton

[00:03:28] of what they called golden chastlers which we know now as palomino.

[00:03:33] They did some home wine making during prohibition?

[00:03:36] Yes, as most of the immigrants did they made most of their own wine and when prohibition

[00:03:42] was enacted in 1919 naturally wine got very tight as did the grapes.

[00:03:49] Transportation of grapes to people to make wine, they were always having to dodge the

[00:03:55] laws and people that were looking to crack down on alcohol and so those immigrants

[00:04:03] found a way to purchase grapes and my grandparents came up to our area in 1911 and started

[00:04:12] purchasing those grapes for themselves in San Francisco but then later moved to the Dry

[00:04:17] Creek Valley in the late 19s or early 1920s basically is when they purchased their second

[00:04:24] piece of property in Heelsburg.

[00:04:26] And that's where your winery is today?

[00:04:28] Yes, well it's in the Dry Creek Valley.

[00:04:30] It's in the second position about three miles from where the original winery was.

[00:04:36] And you founded that with your dad in 1974?

[00:04:40] In 1973, I believe and we had an earlier bonded number in the 30s and 40s and there was a short

[00:04:50] period of time in the 50s that the bond number expired because we had to sell that piece

[00:04:56] of property to the Heelsburg High School District and so then there was a relocation of the

[00:05:03] winery at that time.

[00:05:05] That's interesting because that's actually where you went to school right?

[00:05:07] Yes, I graduated from Heelsburg High and actually walked the Vineyard Rose where the gymnasium

[00:05:15] is and the school offices and classes are today.

[00:05:19] I could remember walking down the rows of the Zinfandel vines there.

[00:05:24] Because you used to work farming with your dad and your grandfather?

[00:05:27] Yes, at that time in the 50s I was very young.

[00:05:30] I was in grammar school so I don't know if I was working that much but I was

[00:05:35] at least following him around in the vineyards.

[00:05:37] You actually were pretty early in terms of going to school for viticulture because you

[00:05:42] were at Davis in the 70s right?

[00:05:45] Yes, my dream in life was to play football so I was on a partial scholarship to Oregon

[00:05:52] State University for football.

[00:05:54] Is that the Ducks?

[00:05:55] No, that was the Beavers in Corvallis.

[00:05:59] There was a big rivalry there but now we were the Beavers and I was on the 67 team which

[00:06:06] was called the Giant Killers.

[00:06:08] At that time we had knocked off three top 10 teams in the nation.

[00:06:12] Of course it was a pack eight at the time and we had knocked off USC Purdue and I

[00:06:18] think it was Oklahoma State.

[00:06:20] All in the top 10 USC was number one.

[00:06:23] We had O.J. Simpson and so forth but some fun times but I didn't last too long in football.

[00:06:30] I was a little too small.

[00:06:32] So I took agronomy classes, crop science classes at Oregon State University and they did not

[00:06:38] have any viticulture or enology classes whatsoever.

[00:06:44] There was only one winery in the state of Oregon at that time in Roseburg I believe

[00:06:48] and that was in 1967.

[00:06:51] And of course since then a lot of things have happened and now they have a vit department

[00:06:55] and enology and so forth but when I graduated in 1970 I came back to California to help

[00:07:05] my dad in the wine and grape and farming business and so I was immediately hired by

[00:07:13] Lambert Bridge winery.

[00:07:14] Of course my dad said he couldn't afford me after a college degree so I had to work out

[00:07:20] a little bit and I was fortunate that they let me go and pursue a master's degree at

[00:07:27] Davis in viticulture.

[00:07:30] So as I was developing vineyards for Lambert Bridge and for my family I was putting some

[00:07:37] of the stuff that I learned in school back to work in combination with all the

[00:07:43] experience my dad had inherited from his dad and mother and I found it very interesting

[00:07:50] because there was a lot of stuff that they were doing that even Davis hadn't found out

[00:07:56] yet and through trial and error we were doing things way ahead of our times in the

[00:08:03] 70s and 80s.

[00:08:04] It wasn't until the mid-80s that I think UC Davis found that pulling the leaves on

[00:08:10] the east side of vines enhanced red wine quality and my dad was having me do that on summer

[00:08:17] vacations back from Oregon State in the late 60s and 70s although he couldn't explain

[00:08:23] why he just said just do it it makes the wine better but then you know with our education

[00:08:29] we we could explain why.

[00:08:32] You convinced your dad to plant some Cabernet?

[00:08:34] Yeah that was later on.

[00:08:37] We had made Cabernet at Lambert Bridge.

[00:08:39] I was then in the 80s full time with our own winery there and I had experimented with Cabernet

[00:08:46] but at that time most of the Cabernet came from the valley floor.

[00:08:51] Everything out of UC Davis was telling us was dictated upon heat units and temperature

[00:08:58] more than soil qualifications and you know we started experimenting at Raffinelli with

[00:09:04] real upland, bench land, hill type soils with Cabernet and my dad I had to twist his arm

[00:09:11] but he let me make a few barrels of Cabernet at the time and unfortunately he passed away

[00:09:17] in early 87 so he really never saw the success of Cabernet coming out of Sonoma County coming

[00:09:25] out of Dry Creek Valley.

[00:09:27] Because what he was really familiar with was Zinfandel and then some of those other

[00:09:30] great varieties that you mentioned.

[00:09:31] Exactly and I tried to cross-examine my dad and wonder why my grandparents and he concentrated

[00:09:40] on Zinfandel and I guess it more related to a nationality thing really because I think

[00:09:47] there was you know some varietals as Cabernet, Chardonnay being experimented with in Napa

[00:09:53] Valley but in northern Sonoma the majority of the immigrants were Italian and they

[00:09:59] wanted to drink wines maybe a little sooner than the Cabernets would let them needed to

[00:10:05] age and Zinfandel's kind of foot the bill because you could make it in many styles, you could

[00:10:10] drink it within a year, you didn't have to put it in new oak barrels and so I think

[00:10:16] that that's why we have 100-year-old vineyards in Dry Creek because I think a lot of those

[00:10:21] immigrants planted grapes to their own tastes.

[00:10:25] So subsequently to the time that you're talking about now Dry Creek was given an AVA so it's

[00:10:31] a designated area now.

[00:10:33] Yes I was fortunate enough, I was young but I was one of the youngest members on a committee

[00:10:39] that we petitioned the BATF for the Appalachian in 1983 or 82 we started and I think we

[00:10:49] received that in 83 and that committee consisted of some old timers in the valley, Mr. Pettincelli,

[00:10:57] Mr. Stair, I believe Charles Rouchard, Lou Preston, myself and my father so I was the

[00:11:03] youngest on the committee and so I had to contact some soil experts which I did and

[00:11:10] you know they proved to us and to the BATF that we had a very unique soil in Dry

[00:11:17] Creek that they could not find anywhere else in Sonoma County.

[00:11:21] We also had some definite boundary lines, drainage mountains on the west and the east so it was

[00:11:26] very easy to outline the Appalachian and therefore adding the soil specific characteristics

[00:11:33] which they called a Dry Creek conglomerate at the time which consisted of three different

[00:11:40] soils that the soil specialist told us were Manzanita, Hare and Boomer series and in combination

[00:11:49] that was a very volcanic gravelly mix well drained soil that is very unique to Dry Creek Valley.

[00:11:57] I think Dry Creek's probably geographically 16 miles long and two miles wide however

[00:12:04] the grape growing area is basically 10 to 11 miles long and maybe a mile and a half wide

[00:12:10] and that's about 9,000 acres of grapes.

[00:12:13] Yes I believe that's correct.

[00:12:16] One of the other things about Dry Creek is it tends to be a little warmer than some other areas of Sonoma.

[00:12:21] Yeah I mean there's always been a little competitive competition in Sonoma County

[00:12:27] at least in the early days as far as home winemaking, small wineries coming on the scene

[00:12:35] and there was always this bragging rights that Dry Creek had better climate and better soils

[00:12:43] for especially red wines than our neighbor Alexander Valley and certainly better than

[00:12:49] the Russian River Valley which was much cooler in south of us but Dry Creek was a little bit warmer.

[00:12:56] When we're talking lower we're talking valley floor and the valley floor in the 70s was planted to Cabernet

[00:13:06] and this is categorically 100% but we found that the valley floor was a little bit too rich

[00:13:12] for and the soils too deep for Cabernet and the Cabernet it was very hard to control their growth

[00:13:19] since they are a very vigorous vine and that stemminess and the vegetativeness would come out into the wines

[00:13:29] if we grew those Cabernet on that very rich sedimentary loamy soils along the creek.

[00:13:36] What we refer to as the valley floor so those alluvial soils that are adjacent to the creek itself

[00:13:44] was established by many years of flooding so they have very rich soils on that valley floor

[00:13:51] but soon as you start to rise on the coastal range on the west side of the valley we call that the uplands

[00:13:58] or more Benchland material and on the east side of the valley there is a range,

[00:14:04] a small mountain range that separates Dry Creek from Alexander Valley

[00:14:09] and as you come out of the valley floor and go up into those uplands you get into what we call the Dry Creek Benchland or uplands

[00:14:21] And that's the area that's really known for Zinn?

[00:14:23] Yes

[00:14:24] And a host of kind of complimentary grape varieties like Petites Aral like you grow and maybe some Garnash

[00:14:29] Exactly

[00:14:31] Working with Zinn and Dry Creek do you see a difference between cooler years and warmer years?

[00:14:36] Cooler year, you can get rot started in those tight clusters

[00:14:41] In a hot year you can get overly sunburned and scorched skins and you know overripe Zinn

[00:14:49] But in our case we have vineyards on both sides of the valley on the west side and on the east side

[00:14:56] So I've found that those two sides are very different

[00:15:01] And some years in a cool year we like the grapes slightly from the east side because you get three hours more

[00:15:08] Two and a half hours more of sunlight, hot afternoons

[00:15:11] And on a hot year we like the west side because they don't get cooked as much

[00:15:15] So I think it's nice to have vineyards on both because if you're blending them you can keep that style

[00:15:22] and consistently a little bit tighter than more spread out

[00:15:27] But we have learned that the sides of the valley, the shading effect from the west side, the coastal range

[00:15:34] I mean that sun goes down two hours, two and a half hours before the sun on the east side of that valley

[00:15:40] So there are those micro climates within the valley

[00:15:43] In the last 30 to 40 years we've found each varieties places so to speak

[00:15:50] Now there's always these little micro topography areas even on the valley floor that you could raise Cabernet or Zinfandel

[00:15:58] But by and large the Dry Creek floor was more alluvial and more rich so the Sauvignon Blanc

[00:16:05] Merleaux tend to do very well on the valley floor if they're trellised correctly

[00:16:10] And the clones and the rootstocks are properly researched

[00:16:14] So that's really how Dry Creek is different than Alexander Valley which is known for Cab and Merleaux in a lot of cases

[00:16:21] And then the Russian River which is often known for Pino and Chardonnay although it's a big area

[00:16:25] Correct

[00:16:26] What have you seen working with Zin in where you are in Dry Creek?

[00:16:30] Because it's been multiple decades and that encompasses I think some learning on your part but also some market changes

[00:16:36] Exactly and Zinfandel happens to be a large cluster, large berry variety

[00:16:44] And can bear quite heavily if pruned that way and managed that way

[00:16:49] And what we've always found that by managing it properly pruning it properly for crop size

[00:16:56] And thinning down when necessary would really change the quality of wine from more of a generic

[00:17:04] More of a blending wine to a true varietal wine that if aged properly in oak and everything can give you a very long lasting, enjoyable wine

[00:17:16] When in California did it shift that 100% Zins got labeled that way?

[00:17:23] I think the 60s there was a lot of experimentation being done with Zinfandel

[00:17:29] And since Zinfandel are very thin skinned compared to Cabernet

[00:17:34] They can ripen very fast at the end of the season, the final week of ripening on the vine

[00:17:40] So there was a lot of mistakes done in the 60s

[00:17:44] People just let the grapes didn't quite harvest them in time and let them get too ripe

[00:17:51] And therefore they had a small problem at that time getting the wines to go dry

[00:17:57] And there was a slight bit of sugar left in the wines and you could taste that

[00:18:04] And some of those wines were labeled late harvest at the time

[00:18:08] They were mistakes and that didn't contribute to the well-being of the Zinfandel variety because people were making mistakes with it

[00:18:17] It wasn't until the mid 70s we started to get a handle on that

[00:18:22] But again, on the east coast nobody had heard of Zinn or very few people had

[00:18:28] And so it was more you had to introduce the wines to the people that had been drinking Cab

[00:18:36] And it was very hard to market wine away from California at that time

[00:18:43] At least it was with Zinfandel

[00:18:46] And as those first Zinfandels were reaching the marketplace on the east coast

[00:18:52] They were in various different styles so when you tried to introduce a wine to somebody

[00:18:59] And every time you picked up a bottle there was a little different style there

[00:19:03] It was very difficult so that threw Zinfandel kind of in a tailspin in the late 70s, early 80s

[00:19:11] And people just didn't know what Zinn should be at that time because they were to open up late harvest

[00:19:17] They were opening up a very light Zinn, a table wine styles in all over the board

[00:19:23] So I think there was about three to four year period in the early 80s

[00:19:29] It was very hard to sell Zinn although there was three or four of us that continued to make it in the same style

[00:19:35] Which I think helped maintains Zinn in the public's eye so to speak

[00:19:40] And then the rest of the Zinn was thrown into something that somebody invented called White Zinfandel

[00:19:47] And for about three to four years that became very, very popular in the early 80s

[00:19:53] And that White Zinfandel craze to those of us making red Zinn

[00:19:58] We didn't even consider it wine, we considered it more like Kool-Aid

[00:20:03] There was a stepping block and it was a way to introduce Zinfandel the name at least to people

[00:20:12] So it was out there more

[00:20:14] And then as the few of us that maintained the style of aging Zinfandel for one to two years in barrels

[00:20:23] Whether it be American or in our case we introduced French in the mid 80s

[00:20:29] French oak and then Zinfandel kind of took off again

[00:20:34] And White Zinfandel tended to fade and then more and more producers started to make Zinfandel in a very, you know, hearty red wine style

[00:20:45] So a couple things in there because I could see how in the 70s especially with some of those drought years like 77

[00:20:51] It would be challenging as people are moving away from mixed blacks to doing just Zinn to deal with what you were talking about with those spikes and sugar

[00:21:00] Yeah, I think it was, geez, it was the early 70s that Pino came onto the scene

[00:21:07] And I think Sonoma vineyards or one of the areas larger wineries started offering $1,200 a ton for Pinot Noir

[00:21:17] And it could be grown anywhere in Sonoma County, but you know that kind of spurred the planting in Sonoma County when those prices, you know, at that time were very, very high

[00:21:29] At that time people were saying well it's 100% Pino or it's 100% Zinfandel or it's 100% Cab

[00:21:38] And you could actually charge more money if it said 100%

[00:21:43] But as winemakers we knew that now the blending was a real art of winemaking

[00:21:49] And even the old timers that planted those old Zinfandel vineyards planted a mixture of Zinfandel, Patitsa raw, caragonan and maybe one row of Gronach

[00:22:01] And that's how they made their wine from one vineyard block and it was a blend

[00:22:05] But somehow in the 70s, I think the BATF required us to have what, 80% or 75-80% of a variety in that before you could call it that variety

[00:22:17] And people were saying, geez if it's 100% it's got to be better

[00:22:21] Well, we went through that stage but by the mid 80s and late 80s we found that no Zinfandel would taste better

[00:22:31] Maybe if we blended it a little bit, Cabernet, you know in some cases tastes better if it had a little Merlot or Cabernet Franc

[00:22:39] I think that's when times really changed in the late 80s early 90s that we started not taking into the account 100% variety had to be better

[00:22:51] For example your dad really liked the little Patitsa raw with the Zin

[00:22:55] Yes, we always blended between 2% and 6% Patitsa raw and Zin

[00:23:01] I think it all came around and in our case we always, my grandfather and my father always labeled their wines as unfined and unfiltered

[00:23:11] And back in the 70s with the high tech Davis wine making techniques

[00:23:17] I mean nobody even had heard of unfined and unfiltered in California

[00:23:23] You didn't want to put it on your label because it might not be finished wines

[00:23:27] But you know we won our share of metals and acclaim and so we didn't want to change that

[00:23:33] And we didn't want to put our wine through filters

[00:23:37] So the open top fermenting, the unfined unfiltered which was a traditional method of making wine

[00:23:43] More of an older method was in competition with the high tech cold fermentation pump overs rather than punch downs

[00:23:53] I think we took our share of criticism from that

[00:23:59] But by the mid 80s people were turning back

[00:24:03] Even Robert Mundavi was saying oh jeez you know I can make a little better wines if I put them in an open top fermenter

[00:24:09] I made them in smaller batches

[00:24:11] Don't filter them as much, don't find them as much

[00:24:14] So it was kind of a nice evolving to see that even though my father and grandfather were being criticized

[00:24:24] And even myself who was at that time involved in the wine making

[00:24:28] People started analyzing the wines and saying okay it's not so bad to have unfined unfiltered wines

[00:24:35] Or wines that have been fermented in smaller batches punched down more labor intensive

[00:24:41] So I think it was gratifying to see that people jumped on that bandwagon and now we see that happen more and more with the smaller newer wineries

[00:24:51] So there's a few things in there, you mentioned the rise of Pinot Noir and Sonoma

[00:24:56] And I feel like from my perspective one of the things that happened in response to that

[00:25:00] Is that some Zin and some old vine vineyards were ripped up in Sonoma to plant Pinot

[00:25:05] And at the same time you mentioned the rise of white Zin

[00:25:09] Which maybe counteracted that in some ways and kept some of that Zinfandel on the ground

[00:25:13] Because there was an outlet for some Zinfandel that otherwise might have gotten pulled up

[00:25:18] Exactly and being first employed at the Lambert Bridge winery right out of college

[00:25:24] I was instructed by the owners to, you know, their favorite wine was Pinot Noir

[00:25:30] Even some Riesling, some Johannesburg Riesling and certainly Chardonnay

[00:25:36] And they had certain parcels in Dry Creek Valley that they said this is what we're going to plant

[00:25:43] This is a wine I like

[00:25:45] And since wineries were paying $1,200 at that time for those varieties

[00:25:50] A lot of people made a lot of mistakes planting Pinot in Dry Creek Valley

[00:25:56] Planting Cabernet on the Valley floor

[00:25:59] All of those things were part of the learning process I feel in Dry Creek Valley

[00:26:05] Because we did try to make wines out of those varieties from those specific soils

[00:26:12] And, you know, they weren't readily acceptable

[00:26:17] What we didn't take into consideration were trellising soil types and topography

[00:26:22] Where those grapes were planted

[00:26:24] So fortunately, a lot of those 60 and 70 and even early 80 plantings

[00:26:32] Were planted on a rootstock called AXR1

[00:26:36] Which, you see, Davis said was resistant but not immune to phylloxera

[00:26:44] And it was a great rootstock and it bared great

[00:26:47] The quality of the fruit was great

[00:26:49] But the root louse phylloxera mutated

[00:26:53] And those vineyards started dying after 10, 15 years

[00:26:58] Which was a blessing in disguise because a lot of people planted the wrong types of grapes

[00:27:05] On the wrong soils and the wrong location

[00:27:08] So when they had to take those vineyards out

[00:27:11] We had a lot more knowledge on rootstocks that were totally resistant, immune to phylloxera

[00:27:19] And so everything started to be replanted

[00:27:22] And at that time we had a lot more knowledge on heat units

[00:27:26] In combination with microclimates and soils

[00:27:29] So things got planted, I want to say the right way

[00:27:34] When we come back, some new knowledge brings some new realizations

[00:27:39] The leaves would tend to turn curly and red at harvest time or early fall

[00:27:47] And a lot of the old timers didn't realize that that was a virus in the wood itself

[00:27:55] That's after this message

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[00:29:35] For more information

[00:29:37] When I look back, what I'm often encountered with is a choice between talking to an old school Italian farmer

[00:29:44] And someone who came in in the 70s and 80s, kind of new generation UC Davis type person

[00:29:49] And what's really interesting about you is you're both of those

[00:29:52] And you kind of bring both of those together in this way

[00:29:56] As the new wave of knowledge is coming in in your 20s kind of situation

[00:30:01] But you could also talk to your dad who didn't die until the mid-80s

[00:30:06] And so you could talk to him about what he saw

[00:30:09] And in a way I think that resulted in something that's unique to Raffinelli

[00:30:14] Which is that you didn't change your style that much during the period of time where the market changed a lot

[00:30:22] Yeah, I think that's true. I feel very fortunate because I was born 1949

[00:30:29] You know going through high school and college through the 60s and 70s

[00:30:35] And I was fortunate to be in on what we call the groundbreaking of premium wines in California in the North Coast

[00:30:46] So I was able to draw upon the vineyards that my grandparents planted

[00:30:54] Which by and large were on the uplands and on the bench lands

[00:31:00] And the more drained, well-drained soil, not the very alluvial rich bottom land

[00:31:06] And that was probably dictated because they couldn't afford that more expensive bottom land

[00:31:11] So they were relegated to more of the bench land and the hill lands

[00:31:16] Which couldn't grow other crops. I mean vines can survive very shallow soils

[00:31:22] And very dry conditions and thin soils

[00:31:26] And they were relegated and that's why they planted the grapes there

[00:31:29] They knew they could make a product that they liked to drink and hopefully could sell

[00:31:34] So I was very fortunate to be able to draw upon that and then go off to college

[00:31:39] And bring back the knowledge of heat-treated vines which was implemented in the early 70s

[00:31:48] A lot of the older vineyards did have leaf roll virus

[00:31:53] The leaves would tend to turn curly and red at harvest time or early fall

[00:32:01] And a lot of the old timers didn't realize that that was a virus in the wood itself

[00:32:09] And UC Davis found that out and cleaned up that with heat-treating the vines

[00:32:15] So you had perfectly healthy wood and that virus wouldn't be transmitted from one generation to the next

[00:32:22] So very, very lucky that I was to come along at the right time and draw from my dad

[00:32:30] But yet also teach my dad that certain vineyards that were infected with leaf roll

[00:32:36] Would eventually have to be pulled out and replanted

[00:32:39] And also got the experience of that AXR-1 rootstock that didn't work

[00:32:44] To all the other rootstocks from France that had been tried for many, many, many years

[00:32:50] But we got to experiment with them through the 70s, 80s and 90s

[00:32:55] And that's what kind of brings us to today and now we've got these rootstocks

[00:33:00] We're still trying to develop rootstocks that are immune to certain diseases

[00:33:05] Such as Pierce's disease ravaging some vineyards in California now

[00:33:10] It's a never-ending process of learning

[00:33:13] But I feel that the era I came up in was very fortunate because so many things happened

[00:33:20] The wine industry was blossomed into something on a world scale

[00:33:25] And now all we're doing is kind of perfecting it and going along

[00:33:29] We're going to continue to improve

[00:33:31] But boy, there was a big change between the 60s and 90s right there

[00:33:37] And you would attribute that to things like maybe the Paris Tasting

[00:33:41] Or the 60-minutes thing about red wine?

[00:33:43] Exactly. I mean, I was just at Davis prior to that

[00:33:48] And I was doing field trips in the Napa Valley

[00:33:52] And there was only a handful of wineries at that time in the Napa Valley

[00:33:56] And Joe Heitz and his wife were offering tastings on a picnic table in their yard

[00:34:03] You know, in the late 60s

[00:34:05] So I think the Paris tastings, which ended up with Beau Barrett at Chateau Montelena

[00:34:13] And Mike Gergitsch, the winemaker there

[00:34:15] And then the Cabernet from...

[00:34:19] Where was that?

[00:34:21] Stag's Leap, maybe

[00:34:22] Stag's Leap, yeah, Warren Warnarski

[00:34:24] And so they bought the white and red won the Paris tastings

[00:34:28] And that just broke ground

[00:34:31] I mean, from that point on, from the mid-70s on

[00:34:34] Every last acre of prunes, pears and apples were basically pulled out and planted to vineyards

[00:34:42] So that must have been a big change for you seeing that

[00:34:45] Because your grandparents had done mixed agriculture on purpose

[00:34:49] It was kind of like an insurance policy

[00:34:51] And now people are coming in and saying, like, let's just do wines

[00:34:55] Exactly, and there was a time from the late 40s to the early 50s

[00:35:01] Maybe the late 50s that prunes and certain fruit crops were being encouraged by our government

[00:35:08] Through the war, certainly prunes, any kind of dried fruit was encouraged

[00:35:13] And people such as my dad that was farming some prunes

[00:35:17] Wasn't allowed to enter the service

[00:35:20] He was asked to stay at home and raise certain types of food that can be dried

[00:35:26] And it was beneficial during World War II

[00:35:29] So those crops became very valuable

[00:35:32] Grape did not

[00:35:34] The price of grapes was secondary

[00:35:37] So having tree crops in that era was premiere

[00:35:41] Because you could make a lot more money off the land from those crops

[00:35:46] But there wasn't the demand for fine wines back then

[00:35:50] And we had lost a couple generations after prohibition to wine education

[00:35:56] To interest in wine from wine being on every dinner table

[00:36:01] There was just a lost couple generations there

[00:36:05] And we had to educate everybody else or try to introduce wines back to the family table

[00:36:11] Which happened from the 70s on after the Paris tastings

[00:36:15] And I think, boy, from there it just exploded and grew

[00:36:19] One of the things I encounter a lot doing interviews with multi-generational winemaking families

[00:36:24] Is that the son goes away and comes back with new ideas and then clashes with his father

[00:36:29] It's a constant, but it seems like for you working at Lambert Bridge

[00:36:33] Kind of maybe prevented that from happening

[00:36:36] Yeah, I think winemaking

[00:36:38] There's a lot of people that want to get into the wine industry

[00:36:43] And that's the temptation of that lifestyle looks so inviting

[00:36:48] But unless you grew up in it, lots of times you don't realize

[00:36:53] That you have other partners that you never thought you'd have

[00:36:57] I.e., mother nature

[00:36:59] Certain things that you had to contend with

[00:37:01] It wasn't just crushing grapes and putting it in a bottle and marketing it

[00:37:06] I think the experience of working at another winery

[00:37:10] A lot of things not to do in the wine industry

[00:37:14] Marketing included

[00:37:17] You have to go out and sell every bottle of wine yourself

[00:37:20] And as a family winery, I think that's passed down

[00:37:24] That my dad often said that when you open a bottle of wine

[00:37:30] You usually don't go hide in a closet and drink it alone

[00:37:34] A wine is a very social beverage

[00:37:36] And you share it with good company over good food

[00:37:40] And he said it's so important for the first time

[00:37:44] That customer visits the family and the winery at the winery

[00:37:48] That he can be made aware of who makes the wine

[00:37:54] Where it's made, how it's made

[00:37:56] That little story that goes along with that bottle of wine

[00:37:59] So much helps the quality of that wine

[00:38:02] And the ease of the consumer to share it with other people

[00:38:06] Because he knows a little bit more about that wine

[00:38:10] The thing about Raffinelli is that you guys pretty much kept to the same style

[00:38:15] For a long time

[00:38:17] And one of the things that seems to have been key

[00:38:20] In keeping that true is that you consciously decided to keep the winery production

[00:38:25] At a certain level and to sell direct

[00:38:28] Which sounds like you didn't like the Lambert Bridge

[00:38:31] The situation that you had been in where you were forced to sell cases

[00:38:35] And get out there and marketing wasn't your thing

[00:38:37] And so you made some of your own decisions when you went back to your own winery

[00:38:41] You have to as a winemaker sell your own wine too

[00:38:44] It was more of at that point people wanted just to raise grapes and make wine

[00:38:52] In the case of Lambert Bridge

[00:38:54] They gave it all to one big distributor

[00:38:57] And at that time it was Siggrums

[00:38:59] And they gave their whole production to Siggrums

[00:39:02] Well, you know, I think you learn over time

[00:39:05] That if you put all your eggs in one basket

[00:39:08] The basket could be dropped and everything could be broke

[00:39:11] And that's in a sense what happened there at that time

[00:39:15] Was for a few years Siggrums took on the marketing

[00:39:19] And then they didn't want to market it

[00:39:21] So the lesson there was go out

[00:39:24] And it might not be making a sale of all your wines in one day

[00:39:29] But it might be a case a day, a two case a day

[00:39:32] But it's a more solid foundation when you market your wine

[00:39:36] And know exactly every customer you sell it to

[00:39:40] And you have more of a handle on your destiny then

[00:39:43] Than just releasing it to somebody else to distribute your wines

[00:39:47] And today that's...

[00:39:49] It's very hard with all the wine labels out there

[00:39:52] I mean it was much easier back then to go out yourself

[00:39:55] And to market it, my wife did all the marketing

[00:39:58] To restaurants only

[00:40:00] At that time we were selling to some retail shops

[00:40:03] But what really happened was the wines won some acclaim

[00:40:08] And medals were written about

[00:40:11] And I not having any marketing knowledge

[00:40:15] Knew from my experience

[00:40:17] We did not want to give it to one distributor

[00:40:20] We wanted to hand market the wine

[00:40:23] And we were starting to run out of wine

[00:40:25] So the best thing to do was to sell it out the winery door

[00:40:30] Develop a guest book and a mailing list

[00:40:34] Which we did

[00:40:36] And then just sell to a few restaurants

[00:40:40] That we were comfortable with

[00:40:42] And the restaurant is very important

[00:40:45] The restaurants were very important

[00:40:47] Wine usually got out to 12 different parties

[00:40:50] And so where you don't have the distribution

[00:40:53] That's a nice place

[00:40:54] If you have it in certain restaurants

[00:40:56] And it gets out there

[00:40:57] So what we did was dropped all our retail accounts

[00:41:01] In the 70s and early 80s

[00:41:03] Went to direct marketing

[00:41:05] And basically direct marketing to restaurants

[00:41:09] Out of state unfortunately

[00:41:11] You have to go through distribution channels

[00:41:13] But at least you can control that distribution

[00:41:16] And if we could sell those distributors

[00:41:18] We would only like the wine sold in restaurants

[00:41:21] If possible

[00:41:22] And so even though had no marketing knowledge

[00:41:26] I mean times forced us to do that

[00:41:29] I mean I knew we didn't want to hand over

[00:41:32] All our product to a few distributors

[00:41:35] And so the winery visitation was very important

[00:41:39] So we developed that over a quarter of a century

[00:41:44] People buying wines direct

[00:41:46] And that spurs on interest in other areas

[00:41:49] Because they share it with people

[00:41:51] They share it with restaurantiers

[00:41:53] And the name is slowly passed on

[00:41:56] Again today everything has to be done

[00:41:59] Very fast in marketing

[00:42:01] You know with the internet too

[00:42:03] I mean we are changing a little bit

[00:42:05] The girls are doing more exposure that way

[00:42:10] But we still

[00:42:12] Our philosophy is the same as far as direct marketing

[00:42:16] Whenever I speak to a small to mid-sized winery

[00:42:20] In California today

[00:42:21] They all tell me direct sales are super important

[00:42:24] We want to increase how much direct sales we're doing

[00:42:27] Because you can get a little bit more margin

[00:42:30] You don't have to work through distribution

[00:42:31] You have more control over who you sell to

[00:42:33] And you have a relationship directly with your customers

[00:42:36] Instead of not knowing who that is

[00:42:38] And so you were kind of ahead of the game on that

[00:42:41] In a way that maybe Stony Hill

[00:42:43] A generation before you was also ahead of the game on that

[00:42:46] But you were doing it at a period of time

[00:42:48] When everybody else was pretty much doing the opposite

[00:42:51] You mentioned Stony Hill

[00:42:54] And yeah we sought their advice at the time

[00:42:58] In a very small winery doing direct sales

[00:43:02] So yeah we patterned ourselves after

[00:43:05] Very few people that knew that they liked the lifestyle

[00:43:10] And if they could make a living off of the vineyard

[00:43:13] By converting those grapes into wine

[00:43:16] Direct marketing was so important

[00:43:21] Even though it was not intended on our part

[00:43:25] Or on my part to do a lot of direct

[00:43:28] When we started running out of wine

[00:43:29] We said we want to please at least the customers

[00:43:31] That have been buying wine from us

[00:43:33] So we developed a list or a guest book

[00:43:36] Or a mailing list

[00:43:37] So it just kind of happened that way

[00:43:40] I want to think we were one of the first

[00:43:42] That developed that and kept to it

[00:43:45] And the reason we can keep to it

[00:43:47] Because we're not growing into a 25 or 50,000 case winery

[00:43:52] We're keeping our production very low

[00:43:55] And thus a handle on who we sell the wine to

[00:43:58] It may seem kind of basic to mention it

[00:44:01] But that's really the difference between you

[00:44:04] And a lot of other wineries that really caught fire

[00:44:06] In the 90s

[00:44:07] Because a lot of those other California wineries

[00:44:09] Expanded their production during the good times

[00:44:12] And then as the foreign imports

[00:44:14] Really took hold later in the domestic market here

[00:44:18] And as people started to move away from

[00:44:20] Maybe drinking domestic wines a little bit

[00:44:22] In terms of markets like New York

[00:44:24] And also as California pricing went higher

[00:44:27] A lot of those wineries were then

[00:44:29] Later really challenged to sell all of those cases

[00:44:32] And had to really kind of change what they were doing

[00:44:35] Either by hiring dedicated marketing staff

[00:44:38] Regional sales people

[00:44:40] Or really looking at what their production could do

[00:44:44] To meet certain price points

[00:44:46] And I think what you did was avoid all that

[00:44:49] Yes, I think you saw that wine explosion

[00:44:54] In the 90s and wineries saying

[00:44:57] Okay we're going to start out at a

[00:44:59] 15 to 20,000 or 25,000 case winery

[00:45:03] But when you do that

[00:45:05] You tie yourself into permanent growth

[00:45:07] Because if you're a 25,000 case winery

[00:45:10] You're going to have to be very involved

[00:45:13] In marketing throughout the country

[00:45:15] And maybe even out of the country

[00:45:17] And then when you do that

[00:45:19] You better have a supply

[00:45:21] Because if that distributor wants more wine

[00:45:25] And you can't give it to them

[00:45:27] You might get lost

[00:45:28] And there might be somebody else taking your place

[00:45:31] So what happened was

[00:45:33] A lot of these smaller wineries

[00:45:35] Started out as this 20, 25,000 ideal position

[00:45:40] Where we said 10 to 12,000 was our target

[00:45:46] Because you can handle that much

[00:45:48] That's probably the maximum

[00:45:50] If you go to 15 to 18

[00:45:52] You're right in the mid-zone

[00:45:53] You're going to have to keep growing

[00:45:55] And then the wineries did that

[00:45:57] And I could name some but I won't

[00:45:59] But I could name some that have actually

[00:46:01] Got to that 25,000 case level

[00:46:03] And said no

[00:46:05] It was more profitable and more enjoyable

[00:46:07] To be at the 10,000 case level

[00:46:09] And so they actually scaled back

[00:46:11] Which is very expensive

[00:46:13] Because you've put out the

[00:46:15] Outlay of capital to make that much wine

[00:46:18] And then you're not using the equipment

[00:46:20] And so forth

[00:46:21] So through trial and error

[00:46:22] I think a lot of people have learned

[00:46:24] What their goal should be

[00:46:26] And their goal should be

[00:46:28] The first thing, getting into the wine business

[00:46:30] Should be how am I going to sell the wine

[00:46:32] Not how am I going to make the grapes

[00:46:34] Or grow the grapes or this

[00:46:36] Have a plan because

[00:46:38] When your wines do mature

[00:46:41] And come to market

[00:46:42] You have to market that vintage

[00:46:44] If not you have double storage

[00:46:46] Left in your winery

[00:46:47] And then you have to add space

[00:46:49] Just because you can't move that wine

[00:46:51] So it's so important

[00:46:53] To know what you're going to do

[00:46:55] With the wine after it's made

[00:46:57] And so many people just

[00:46:59] Start growing grapes

[00:47:00] Oh, it's fun

[00:47:01] And now let's make wine

[00:47:02] And then they make wine

[00:47:03] Now let's sell wine

[00:47:04] I think that should be done in

[00:47:06] In the reverse order

[00:47:09] Nowhere in who you're going to market

[00:47:11] Your wines to

[00:47:13] You know I don't have any problem

[00:47:15] With wineries getting bigger

[00:47:17] Especially successful wineries

[00:47:18] That want to grow

[00:47:19] I don't have any bone to pick with that

[00:47:21] But what I have seen is that

[00:47:23] Some of those wineries that did grow

[00:47:25] Then later sold

[00:47:27] Out of family hands

[00:47:28] And you've managed to avoid that

[00:47:30] And that to me is a

[00:47:32] It's kind of a key thing for how

[00:47:34] California is going to develop

[00:47:35] Over the next couple decades

[00:47:37] It's all on what you perceive

[00:47:40] As success

[00:47:42] And so many very successful wineries

[00:47:45] Have been truly successful

[00:47:48] As far as growth and reputation

[00:47:51] However, in most cases

[00:47:54] They end up selling

[00:47:56] In family winery instances

[00:47:58] That's you know I could name

[00:48:00] A lot of families that have

[00:48:02] Developed a brand and grown

[00:48:04] And then sold

[00:48:06] And then started again

[00:48:08] And developed and sold again

[00:48:10] It's when you reach that point

[00:48:13] Where you're not going to be a giant

[00:48:15] In the wine market

[00:48:16] You're going to have to sell

[00:48:18] Because you can't compete with

[00:48:20] The constellations of the world

[00:48:22] And you know

[00:48:24] The board of directors making wine

[00:48:26] Somewhere else but everything's predicated

[00:48:28] Around growth

[00:48:30] And so the families

[00:48:32] Wineries that have

[00:48:34] Disappeared unfortunately

[00:48:36] Have been by the third generation

[00:48:39] And because it takes more wine

[00:48:42] To support more family members

[00:48:44] To support more spouses

[00:48:46] And their spouses

[00:48:48] The family grows

[00:48:50] And so does the winery have to grow

[00:48:52] To divide that income up

[00:48:55] And that's where the death spiral

[00:48:58] Seems to begin

[00:49:00] Because everybody has positions

[00:49:02] To take and you're growing

[00:49:04] And then it's not a family winery anymore

[00:49:08] Because then again you're not marketing

[00:49:10] Your wine

[00:49:12] You're expecting someone else to do

[00:49:14] All of that for you

[00:49:16] So I think that's in our case

[00:49:18] We've said, okay

[00:49:20] We've gone through, we're in our fourth generation

[00:49:22] And it's worked

[00:49:24] So why make more wine

[00:49:26] And jeopardize that growth?

[00:49:28] Yes, we could grow

[00:49:30] And we could sell for a greater

[00:49:32] Amount of money

[00:49:34] But if we're all happy doing what we do

[00:49:36] Here in the same place

[00:49:38] Then what's the

[00:49:40] Perception of success?

[00:49:42] Success is happiness

[00:49:44] Success is just making

[00:49:46] What you need to make

[00:49:48] And that seems like a key insight to me

[00:49:50] And I say it because of how uncommon it is

[00:49:52] I mean, I'm really looking at a California wine industry

[00:49:54] That is moving out of family hands

[00:49:56] Yeah, it has been for the last

[00:49:58] 10 to 20 years

[00:50:00] And everything's working

[00:50:02] Against that family winery

[00:50:04] There's so many things working against

[00:50:06] The price of the land

[00:50:08] Inheritance, taxes

[00:50:10] So many things work against that

[00:50:12] But if you can plan correctly

[00:50:14] And if you have

[00:50:16] The right next generation

[00:50:18] With the same ideas

[00:50:20] That have been successful

[00:50:22] Up to that time

[00:50:24] I think you can make it work

[00:50:26] But it's becoming

[00:50:28] Rareer and rarer

[00:50:32] After the break, we'll hear what multiple generations

[00:50:34] In the same spot

[00:50:36] Have brought to Raffinelli as a winery

[00:50:40] My dad always said

[00:50:42] He said, the most important thing

[00:50:44] You need is footprints

[00:50:46] In the vineyard

[00:50:48] That's after this

[00:50:50] It's not enough to make great wine

[00:50:52] You also have to reach the consumer

[00:50:54] That appreciates that wine

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[00:51:58] One of your daughters joined you in the winemaking

[00:52:00] About 20 years ago, right?

[00:52:02] Yes, Shelly

[00:52:04] And they all grew up in the wine industry

[00:52:06] And Shelly was the oldest

[00:52:08] And she poured wine in our tasting area

[00:52:10] At 13 years old

[00:52:12] Which was illegal, but she had to

[00:52:14] Help the family

[00:52:16] And she wanted to get away and work

[00:52:18] In other aspects

[00:52:20] In agriculture, banking or something else

[00:52:22] But she got hooked

[00:52:24] At Cal Poly making her own

[00:52:26] Pinot Noir down there

[00:52:28] And she wanted to come back

[00:52:30] And join the family

[00:52:32] So I'm very fortunate

[00:52:34] In my case that we don't force

[00:52:36] Our kids to come back and see

[00:52:38] What you want to do

[00:52:40] If this is what you might want to do

[00:52:42] The position is always here for you

[00:52:44] So she did come back

[00:52:46] Done a wonderful job

[00:52:48] My second daughter, Stacy

[00:52:50] Got her law degree

[00:52:52] Practiced law for a couple years

[00:52:54] And decided that working with

[00:52:56] A family register and around the family

[00:52:58] Might be more enjoyable

[00:53:00] Maybe less financial return

[00:53:02] But certainly

[00:53:04] Having the family on the estate

[00:53:06] And being all together is

[00:53:08] Very important to them

[00:53:10] It doesn't work for everybody

[00:53:12] I mean you have to have the personalities

[00:53:14] That work together also

[00:53:16] It really seems like some of the keys

[00:53:18] To that are having the piece of land

[00:53:20] Controlling your grape sources

[00:53:22] Deciding that you're not going to grow too big

[00:53:24] Handling the sales in a way that is going to be sustainable

[00:53:27] Weathering the storms of fashion

[00:53:29] In terms of the market

[00:53:31] And then having kids that are willing

[00:53:33] And want to take over

[00:53:35] Yes, and it's you know

[00:53:37] In some instances it's very hard

[00:53:39] Because you're still the same size

[00:53:42] So you really can't afford

[00:53:44] To go out and hire a lot more people

[00:53:46] You have to be able to say

[00:53:49] Okay I'm going to be there

[00:53:51] And pour the wine for people

[00:53:53] For the punch downs

[00:53:55] And so that's where

[00:53:57] It becomes very hard

[00:53:59] Because each generation feels like

[00:54:01] They have better education

[00:54:03] And maybe they shouldn't work quite as hard

[00:54:05] Sometimes you know that hard work

[00:54:07] Doesn't kill you and it's nice

[00:54:09] To go to bed at night

[00:54:11] And be able to sleep instead of

[00:54:13] Worry about where your next

[00:54:15] Job is coming from

[00:54:17] So in terms of how you grow the wine

[00:54:19] One of the things you've mentioned to me

[00:54:21] Is that Zinfandel can vary

[00:54:23] In terms of where it's planted

[00:54:25] In terms of soil type

[00:54:27] Yes, in Dry Creek specifically

[00:54:29] I mean certainly there's areas

[00:54:31] Of California that are noted for Zinfandel

[00:54:33] Amador, Paso, Robles, Dry Creek

[00:54:35] To name a few but

[00:54:37] They're very site specific

[00:54:39] They're very they like their feet

[00:54:41] To be dry in other words

[00:54:43] They don't want those rich soils

[00:54:45] They want well drained gravity soils

[00:54:47] And they're more temperamental

[00:54:49] Than the earthen skin and tight clusters

[00:54:51] So being that way

[00:54:53] They can imbibe

[00:54:55] The moisture in the air

[00:54:57] The fogginess that we get in the summertime

[00:54:59] Those grapes can just

[00:55:01] Absorb that moisture

[00:55:03] Where Cabernet or thick skin

[00:55:05] It doesn't affect the size of those berries

[00:55:07] So they can be very temperamental

[00:55:09] From year to year

[00:55:11] From day to day

[00:55:13] From week to week

[00:55:15] And certainly the last week of ripening

[00:55:17] And ripen very fast

[00:55:19] Because of those thin skinned characteristics

[00:55:21] And so

[00:55:23] You know it's very very important

[00:55:25] To have the soils

[00:55:27] The management capabilities

[00:55:29] Your knowledge of

[00:55:31] What crop load each vine

[00:55:33] Can handle

[00:55:35] Just because it's an old vine

[00:55:37] Doesn't mean it's going to be a great wine

[00:55:39] If those old vines

[00:55:41] Are on the valley floor

[00:55:43] And 20 feet of rich Yolo loam soil

[00:55:45] They're never going to give you a classic Zinfandel

[00:55:49] So even though marketing says

[00:55:51] Oh old vine on the label should mean quality

[00:55:53] Not necessarily

[00:55:55] It takes all of those

[00:55:57] In combination

[00:55:59] It takes those old vines on the right soil

[00:56:01] With the right management

[00:56:03] And in some cases with the right luck

[00:56:05] That they've survived

[00:56:07] All the pests and diseases

[00:56:09] That have come through the area

[00:56:11] Do you see a signature

[00:56:13] For Zinfandel that has to do with volcanic soil?

[00:56:17] I do

[00:56:19] I think you know there has to be some

[00:56:21] Rocks and gravel in that soil

[00:56:23] To help it drain properly

[00:56:25] If it's solid clay

[00:56:27] Certain varieties can hang in there

[00:56:29] Zinfandels are just

[00:56:31] Too temperamental

[00:56:33] Just as Pinot Noir is

[00:56:35] Also very delicate grape

[00:56:37] And so many things can affect them

[00:56:39] Short term, long term

[00:56:41] And soils

[00:56:43] Are definitely one of the most

[00:56:45] Important things

[00:56:47] But not the only thing

[00:56:49] I don't know how often you taste other wine

[00:56:51] Ries Zinfandel

[00:56:53] But when you line up a bunch of zins

[00:56:55] Do you see a character that's from your spot

[00:56:57] In Dry Creek that you can identify?

[00:56:59] Yeah I think

[00:57:01] The wines have always for the last 100 years

[00:57:03] Or close to 100 years

[00:57:05] Have been made

[00:57:07] From soils within

[00:57:09] A 3 mile radius

[00:57:11] In Dry Creek Valley

[00:57:13] So it's not even the upper or lower end

[00:57:15] Of Dry Creek, it's a specific area

[00:57:17] Of Dry Creek

[00:57:19] Not to say that they're the best in the world

[00:57:21] Or the worst in the world

[00:57:23] But they're consistently

[00:57:25] Come from that area

[00:57:27] And so many labels

[00:57:29] Are buying grapes from other vineyards

[00:57:31] From other areas and blending them

[00:57:33] And then lose that source of grapes

[00:57:35] And have to find another source

[00:57:37] So that's going to change your style

[00:57:39] I think it's so important for

[00:57:41] A small producer

[00:57:43] To develop a style

[00:57:45] That comes off of his land

[00:57:47] And that's very unique because then he can draw

[00:57:49] On verticals of 10, 20 years

[00:57:51] And say look it

[00:57:53] Taste these 15 wines

[00:57:55] The style is very much the same

[00:57:57] Yes the vintages are going to be

[00:57:59] Different but if you

[00:58:01] Change the vineyards

[00:58:03] The ownership, the management

[00:58:05] Every 3 to 5 years

[00:58:07] You do that vertical and you're going to get

[00:58:09] Some very very different wines over those

[00:58:11] Probably if you do make an incremental change

[00:58:13] It's easier to tell

[00:58:15] Because if you're in a new spot and you make

[00:58:17] An incremental change well you don't know

[00:58:19] If it's the new spot or the change

[00:58:21] That's causing that. Exactly

[00:58:23] The more familiar you can become

[00:58:25] With your vineyard

[00:58:27] Your specific vines in that vineyard

[00:58:29] The better it is

[00:58:31] My dad always said

[00:58:33] He said

[00:58:35] The most important thing you need

[00:58:37] Is footprints in the vineyard

[00:58:39] In other words, you can't manage

[00:58:41] That vineyard from out of town

[00:58:43] You can't manage that vineyard from your house

[00:58:45] You have to be down

[00:58:47] Walking those rows every week

[00:58:49] Even in the off season

[00:58:51] For pruning, for thinning

[00:58:53] For suckering

[00:58:55] Footprints in the vineyard

[00:58:57] And yes if you don't do all your own work

[00:58:59] You have to tell other people how to do it

[00:59:01] But how can you tell them how to do it

[00:59:03] If you haven't been in that vineyard

[00:59:05] Knowing that each vine is different

[00:59:07] And each vineyard is different

[00:59:09] So footprints in the vineyard

[00:59:11] Will always dictate the quality of your wine

[00:59:15] How do you approach a harvest for Zinfandel?

[00:59:17] By knowing our vineyards

[00:59:19] We know which ones will probably

[00:59:21] Ripen first

[00:59:23] Which ones will probably ripen last

[00:59:25] Which ones that need

[00:59:27] A little more tender loving care

[00:59:29] You know, trimming the wings

[00:59:31] Off the Zinfandel cluster

[00:59:33] Zinfandel has a large wing

[00:59:35] Hanging onto it

[00:59:37] Where that wing touches the main cluster

[00:59:39] Those berries never see daylight

[00:59:41] So if you take that wing out

[00:59:43] That cluster that's left

[00:59:45] Every berry on that cluster

[00:59:47] Is exposed

[00:59:49] There's nothing late against it

[00:59:51] Little stuff like that

[00:59:53] Making sure no leaves

[00:59:55] Cluster are actually right on top

[00:59:57] The grapes because the moisture

[00:59:59] Every morning will collect under that leaf

[01:00:01] And could give you problems

[01:00:03] So going through

[01:00:05] And making sure every cluster

[01:00:07] Doesn't touch each other

[01:00:09] There's no leaves touching that cluster

[01:00:11] There are leaves shading it

[01:00:13] And around it but not touching it

[01:00:15] Certain small stuff like that

[01:00:17] Tends to bring the style

[01:00:19] Of wine into play

[01:00:21] I mean, if you do that every year

[01:00:23] You're going to see more of a consistent end product

[01:00:26] And that might be important in the case of Zinfandel

[01:00:29] Especially because of asynchronous ripening

[01:00:31] Right? Different ripening in the cluster

[01:00:33] Exactly

[01:00:35] That's another, you know, you could go on and on

[01:00:37] About ZIN but ZINs are

[01:00:39] Not an even size

[01:00:41] Throughout that cluster

[01:00:43] Those berries can vary

[01:00:45] In size where Cabernet and Pinot

[01:00:47] Are pretty much all the same size berries

[01:00:49] Zinfandels can be

[01:00:51] A different size

[01:00:53] Which makes it more difficult

[01:00:55] To harvest and to

[01:00:57] Determine the harvest dates

[01:00:59] Because the smaller berries

[01:01:01] Will usually ripen faster

[01:01:03] And in our case we always

[01:01:05] Say that we like maybe

[01:01:07] 10% puckered

[01:01:09] Berries within that cluster

[01:01:11] If we can look at that cluster

[01:01:13] And say, yeah, 8-10%

[01:01:15] Are actually have

[01:01:17] A slight wrinkling to the skin

[01:01:19] Not raisin, but wrinkling to the skin

[01:01:21] We call that puckering

[01:01:23] And then the rest

[01:01:25] And it's just very hard to determine

[01:01:27] Because at one or two days extra of heat

[01:01:29] You'll go from 10% puckered berries

[01:01:31] To 30%

[01:01:33] And that will go from 25 sugars

[01:01:35] To 28 sugars

[01:01:37] And then your style is much riper

[01:01:39] And that's the big thing that has hurt ZIN

[01:01:41] All these years

[01:01:43] Because people have made mistakes

[01:01:45] Or overripe

[01:01:47] And often they'll grapes to make

[01:01:49] Into wine which gives you

[01:01:51] Very high alcohol ZINs

[01:01:53] And I'm not saying that's bad or good

[01:01:55] It's just a style and type

[01:01:57] That, you know, is not our style

[01:01:59] We want more of a food wine

[01:02:01] And that as it ages

[01:02:03] Can age gracefully

[01:02:05] Instead of just lose fruit

[01:02:07] And then the alcohol just becomes

[01:02:09] More dominant in the wine as it ages

[01:02:11] So you pick a style

[01:02:13] That you feel is

[01:02:15] True to that variety and you stick with it

[01:02:17] And that might be a little different

[01:02:19] For something like Cabernet

[01:02:21] Because I feel like a lot of times when I talk

[01:02:23] With Cabernet producers, they're actually looking

[01:02:25] For the actual grapes to look somewhat similar

[01:02:27] In the cluster

[01:02:29] And what you're saying is you kind of

[01:02:31] Aim for a certain level of diversity

[01:02:33] Within the cluster and you're kind of

[01:02:35] Looking for a certain ratio and then you grab it

[01:02:37] Yeah, although Cabernet is much easier

[01:02:39] Because that's the characteristic

[01:02:41] Of Cabernet as being uniform

[01:02:43] And Cabernet is not and so

[01:02:45] That means you have to work that much harder

[01:02:47] With the Zinfandel grape

[01:02:49] Have you found personal rewards

[01:02:51] Beyond the financial rewards to working with

[01:02:53] Zinfandel because there is some level

[01:02:55] Of difficulty, are there things that you personally

[01:02:57] Like about the grapes or the wine?

[01:02:59] If I was growing grapes

[01:03:01] I probably wouldn't grow Zinfandel

[01:03:03] To sell, I mean

[01:03:05] We love the wine so much

[01:03:07] We're able to put up with

[01:03:09] The harder aspects of

[01:03:11] The characteristics of the Zinfandel grape

[01:03:13] In clusters

[01:03:15] The other thing is

[01:03:17] California pretty much has Zinfandel

[01:03:19] As their own grape

[01:03:21] Because you don't see it produced

[01:03:23] Too much

[01:03:25] Anywhere else in the world

[01:03:27] You go to France, Italy

[01:03:29] They have versions of Zinfandel

[01:03:31] But they don't have that true Zinfandel

[01:03:33] They haven't developed that reputation

[01:03:35] So by making Zin

[01:03:37] We're not in competition with

[01:03:39] The wine country in the world

[01:03:41] We have our niche

[01:03:43] That makes it more enticing

[01:03:45] Because you don't have the competition

[01:03:47] From the rest of the world, so to speak

[01:03:49] With that variety

[01:03:51] So I think there's positives and negatives

[01:03:53] Of that Zinfandel

[01:03:55] How much do your production today

[01:03:57] Is Zin to Cab to Merlot?

[01:03:59] Two thirds Zin

[01:04:01] So maybe

[01:04:03] 6500 cases of Zin

[01:04:05] 3,000 cases

[01:04:07] Of Cab, 3,500

[01:04:09] So one third Cab

[01:04:11] And Shelly, you know

[01:04:13] I added the Cab

[01:04:15] And Shelly has added Merlot

[01:04:17] And an estate blend

[01:04:19] Merlot she's been added for 15 years

[01:04:21] Our production has only grown

[01:04:23] To 500 cases or

[01:04:25] Maybe a little more

[01:04:27] We always used a little Merlot

[01:04:29] In our Cab blend

[01:04:31] And now we use a little Cab

[01:04:33] In our Merlot blend

[01:04:35] Which is Cabernet and Merlot

[01:04:37] And we're experimenting

[01:04:39] With a little petite Verdot

[01:04:41] When I think about Raffinelli

[01:04:43] What I tend to think is

[01:04:45] Bordeaux wine making protocol

[01:04:47] Applied to Zinfandel

[01:04:49] And then Bordeaux grapes

[01:04:51] Exactly, I mean

[01:04:53] In the 60s, no one was using

[01:04:55] New oak barrels for Zin

[01:04:57] You have to be very careful

[01:04:59] Because Zins won't take as much oak

[01:05:01] As Cabernet will

[01:05:03] And they'll have 100% new oak on Cab

[01:05:05] And if you have the right style

[01:05:07] Tannins and the right grapes

[01:05:09] Coming out of that vineyard

[01:05:11] You're not going to over oak it

[01:05:13] You're just going to add complexities

[01:05:15] To that wine

[01:05:17] Where Zins, yes, you can over oak it

[01:05:19] It is thin skin

[01:05:21] You can over oak it

[01:05:23] And then drown out the characters

[01:05:25] Of the true characters of Zin

[01:05:27] Which is that wild berry character

[01:05:29] In our instance

[01:05:31] And you know, raspberry-ish

[01:05:33] Sometimes black berry-ish

[01:05:35] But jammy characters

[01:05:37] You go to the foothills in Amador County

[01:05:39] And they probably have

[01:05:41] More spice and pepper

[01:05:43] To their Zins

[01:05:45] Being that they're at a different elevation

[01:05:47] In different soils

[01:05:49] But if we want to add a little spice and pepper

[01:05:51] We add maybe 2% more

[01:05:53] Petite Cera

[01:05:55] Because that's what Petite Cera has

[01:05:57] That peppery and spicy

[01:05:59] And we can control that by

[01:06:01] By the blend itself

[01:06:03] But yes, we, you know

[01:06:05] Getting back to the original question on

[01:06:07] Did Bordeaux have an influence on Zinfandel

[01:06:09] Certainly because Zinfandel never saw new barrels

[01:06:11] We're using new barrels

[01:06:13] We're using, you know, 18 months

[01:06:15] Aging in the oak

[01:06:17] Where, you know, maybe 6 or 8 months

[01:06:19] Other people have used for Zins

[01:06:21] Not giving it the time

[01:06:23] It really needs to develop

[01:06:25] Working the wines

[01:06:27] And unfiltered wines

[01:06:29] Need more racking

[01:06:31] By racking I mean

[01:06:33] The French have always called that

[01:06:35] Working the wines, which is pumping

[01:06:37] The wine out of a barrel into a tank

[01:06:39] Or another barrel washing the barrel out

[01:06:41] Pumping the wine back into that barrel

[01:06:43] Working the wine

[01:06:45] Basically what you're doing is decantering

[01:06:47] The wine when it's aging

[01:06:49] And good red wines need

[01:06:51] That extra work

[01:06:53] And that extra movement

[01:06:55] To develop it

[01:06:57] And I think that's what we're doing

[01:06:59] Where a lot of people just crush it

[01:07:01] For a minute, rack it once or so

[01:07:03] And it's in the bottle and out the door

[01:07:05] Again, stylistic differences

[01:07:07] Not saying that one's better than the other

[01:07:09] You just develop a style

[01:07:11] Well if you're going to do unfinding

[01:07:13] Unfiltered it's probably helpful to rack

[01:07:15] Four times, right?

[01:07:17] Necessary, I mean

[01:07:19] Even though some of our customers

[01:07:21] Want to see the sediment and tart rates

[01:07:23] On the cork

[01:07:25] We don't want to cold stabilize it

[01:07:27] We don't want to take everything out of the wine

[01:07:29] We want to leave as much body in the wine

[01:07:31] As we can

[01:07:33] And since you're not sterile filtering it

[01:07:35] Running it through sterile filter pads

[01:07:37] You're risking whatever that is

[01:07:39] Going into the bottle and then

[01:07:41] You're having stuff happen

[01:07:43] In the bottle that you might not want to happen

[01:07:45] So very, very important

[01:07:47] To keep the barrel as clean

[01:07:49] As you can

[01:07:51] Do you approach the leaves?

[01:07:53] Do you do some contact with the leaves

[01:07:55] In tank or...

[01:07:57] Yeah, we don't do anything in the barrel

[01:07:59] We try to keep the wine as clean as we can

[01:08:01] We don't want to coat the inside

[01:08:03] Of the barrel with tart rates and leaves

[01:08:05] We want that exposure

[01:08:07] To the oak but

[01:08:09] We do all that controlling in the fermenter

[01:08:11] Whether it's extended fermentation

[01:08:13] On the skins

[01:08:15] All that takes place in the small

[01:08:17] Open top fermenters

[01:08:19] Punch down

[01:08:21] And the extended skin contact

[01:08:23] If we need it

[01:08:25] And that all varies on the vineyard

[01:08:27] We're making into wine

[01:08:29] And we have four different vineyards

[01:08:31] That go into our wine

[01:08:33] So we handle each vineyard

[01:08:35] Maybe a little differently

[01:08:37] Because they're coming from

[01:08:39] Either older vines, younger vines

[01:08:41] Slightly different soils

[01:08:43] Soil types again

[01:08:45] Has dictation upon the ripening

[01:08:47] And the thickness of the skins

[01:08:49] Everything

[01:08:51] So it's just taking all of those in

[01:08:55] You handle them different

[01:08:57] And then blend them after the first six months

[01:08:59] The small open top fermenters

[01:09:01] We have 18 of them

[01:09:03] We bring them into the fermenting room

[01:09:05] Each year at harvest

[01:09:07] And have basically

[01:09:09] During the month of September

[01:09:11] All those tanks being emptied

[01:09:13] At least twice, sometimes three times

[01:09:15] So we have

[01:09:17] Grapes coming in at different times

[01:09:19] Cabernet later than zen

[01:09:21] And burlough in the middle

[01:09:23] But all open top

[01:09:25] And the reason you're using stainless is for better temperature control?

[01:09:27] Well, yeah, I mean

[01:09:29] My dad didn't want to switch

[01:09:31] And I forced him to try one

[01:09:33] Stainless tank

[01:09:35] He got me on the first fermentation

[01:09:37] Said that his wine started

[01:09:39] Fermenting before my wine did

[01:09:41] Even though it came from the same vineyard

[01:09:43] The only reason for that

[01:09:45] There was a lot of yeast

[01:09:47] Impregnated into the wood

[01:09:49] And so the wild yeast

[01:09:51] Were already there from the year before

[01:09:53] Almost all they needed to be

[01:09:55] Was woken up

[01:09:57] And the problem with wood

[01:09:59] Is if you're only using it

[01:10:01] Six weeks out of the year

[01:10:03] It's going to shrink

[01:10:05] Stuff can get between the wood staves

[01:10:07] And then you soak it up

[01:10:09] And you don't know

[01:10:11] 80 to 90% of winemaking

[01:10:13] Is cleanliness

[01:10:15] And it's just like your kitchen counter

[01:10:17] If you leave it messy

[01:10:19] You're more of a chance to get things happening

[01:10:21] On that counter

[01:10:23] That you don't want to happen

[01:10:25] Winemaking is no different

[01:10:27] Cleanliness is so important

[01:10:29] Did your dad ever use redwood or?

[01:10:31] Yeah, oh yeah, they used redwood storage tanks

[01:10:33] I think they even used

[01:10:35] My grandfather used redwood barrels

[01:10:37] Way back when

[01:10:39] I was looking for the oak overlay

[01:10:41] On the wine

[01:10:43] And my dad used redwood fermenters

[01:10:45] Which during the fermentation process

[01:10:47] You're not going to pick up anything

[01:10:49] Unless the tank is brand new

[01:10:51] And the tanks were older

[01:10:53] So he did use wooden fermenters

[01:10:55] But he did realize

[01:10:57] That stainless were

[01:10:59] Much easier to deal with

[01:11:01] And basically

[01:11:03] You got the same end product

[01:11:05] Out of an open top stainless

[01:11:07] Or an open top

[01:11:09] Plastic container

[01:11:11] Which a lot of people ferment in these

[01:11:13] Macro bins

[01:11:15] Or wooden fermenters

[01:11:17] I mean it's all about the escaping of the gases

[01:11:19] During the fermentation

[01:11:21] The punch down, the breaking of the cap

[01:11:23] Where in a closed top stainless

[01:11:25] You can only pump over

[01:11:27] You can't really break that cap

[01:11:29] Those skins stay in the same place

[01:11:31] All the time during that whole

[01:11:33] 10 day 2 week fermentation

[01:11:35] When you break the caps

[01:11:37] You're just exposing different sides

[01:11:39] Of those skins and seeds

[01:11:41] And you're constantly stirring

[01:11:43] And mixing it up

[01:11:45] And I think that's an important process

[01:11:47] Of the fermentation process

[01:11:49] So what's the typical maceration time

[01:11:51] For the different grape varieties?

[01:11:53] Zen is typical

[01:11:55] Probably 8 to 10 days

[01:11:57] Cabernet can be

[01:11:59] 12 days to 21 days

[01:12:01] We'll leave extended skin contact

[01:12:03] Or select the reserve cap

[01:12:05] For greater 10 in extraction

[01:12:07] Or whatever

[01:12:09] How long does a mallow take typically?

[01:12:11] Depends on

[01:12:13] The year

[01:12:15] Certainly the year

[01:12:17] When you pick the grapes

[01:12:19] The temperature of the grapes

[01:12:21] If it's an early fall and they tend to cool off

[01:12:23] In those wooden barrels and those wooden tanks

[01:12:25] You know the mallocles slow down

[01:12:27] And take its time

[01:12:29] It all evolves around

[01:12:31] I mean we have malloc in the winery

[01:12:33] We couldn't make a wine that

[01:12:35] Probably doesn't go through malloc

[01:12:37] So infested with malloc bacteria

[01:12:39] That you're going to get malloc

[01:12:41] That's why we've never made a white wine

[01:12:43] We'd have a hell of a time

[01:12:45] Probably keeping the malloc from going

[01:12:47] However, yeah

[01:12:49] It's a year to year thing

[01:12:51] Sometimes they go through fast

[01:12:53] Sometimes my daughter

[01:12:55] Will inoculate them in the fermenter

[01:12:57] Sometimes she knows

[01:12:59] Those certain vineyards don't have a problem

[01:13:01] They go right into the tank and they finish out

[01:13:03] In three weeks

[01:13:05] Two weeks, three weeks

[01:13:07] Sometimes they'll last till Thanksgiving

[01:13:09] You know, six weeks, eight weeks

[01:13:11] What do you do about pressing wine?

[01:13:13] We do put them through a press

[01:13:15] But actually

[01:13:17] When you dump the skins out

[01:13:19] You can take

[01:13:21] A handful of pumice

[01:13:23] Grape skins and seeds

[01:13:25] And squeeze real tight

[01:13:27] Some wine out of that

[01:13:29] So the harder you press

[01:13:31] The greater chance of breaking

[01:13:33] Seeds and you don't want

[01:13:35] Broken seeds

[01:13:37] Into your fermented juice

[01:13:39] So when we press a wine

[01:13:41] We're just pressing it

[01:13:43] So we can handle

[01:13:45] The skins back out

[01:13:47] Into the vineyard

[01:13:49] We like to say we don't use pressed

[01:13:51] Wines, so to speak

[01:13:53] It's just free run, so to speak

[01:13:55] Because basically you don't want the extra alcohol

[01:13:57] That that would bring

[01:13:59] Bringing out those extra sugars and you're worried

[01:14:01] About getting those harsh tannins from the seeds

[01:14:03] Exactly, especially in

[01:14:05] Zinfandel grapes you have those

[01:14:07] Putkard berries that are going to be

[01:14:09] 28 in sugar versus

[01:14:11] 25 or 29

[01:14:13] And if you squeeze the last

[01:14:15] Little bit out of those they might be even higher

[01:14:17] In sugar so

[01:14:19] You don't want those to be squeezed

[01:14:21] That tight

[01:14:23] So you're just going for a grappa

[01:14:25] That actually is maybe a little bit of a key

[01:14:27] For avoiding that kind of

[01:14:29] Late harvest style that you were referring to earlier

[01:14:31] Exactly, exactly

[01:14:33] But again you get

[01:14:35] More concentration, the riper you get

[01:14:37] The more concentration in that

[01:14:39] In that wine although there's

[01:14:41] Given takes there, the pHs and acids

[01:14:43] Start changing and

[01:14:45] All chemistry of the

[01:14:47] Juice changes as it ages

[01:14:49] I say unfortunately

[01:14:51] Wine writers and critics have

[01:14:53] Gone overboard to

[01:14:55] To give those highly

[01:14:57] Concentrate higher alcohol

[01:14:59] Wines the acclaim

[01:15:01] That you know they get

[01:15:03] And that dictates a style

[01:15:05] Of wine that everybody shoots for

[01:15:07] And as my dad said

[01:15:09] You know if you follow the sheep

[01:15:11] You'll eventually go off the cliff

[01:15:13] All together so

[01:15:15] Pick your own style

[01:15:17] That's really the takeaway from

[01:15:19] Raffinelli for me is that

[01:15:21] You didn't change the style all the time

[01:15:23] With the market because

[01:15:25] It's not so common like a lot of people make concessions

[01:15:29] I was privileged to be invited to a

[01:15:31] San Jose Mercury News

[01:15:33] Tasting I think

[01:15:35] This was back in the 90s I think

[01:15:37] Early 90s and

[01:15:39] Zinfandel's were changing to higher alcohols

[01:15:41] And Paul Draper and

[01:15:43] A few of us you know we sat

[01:15:45] Around and said let's pick

[01:15:47] You know the last 10 years of wine

[01:15:49] And see how they age

[01:15:51] And then you know

[01:15:53] We felt that the age a lot better

[01:15:55] If they're in the 14 range

[01:15:57] Rather than in the 15, 16 or 17 range

[01:16:01] Why do you think that that became

[01:16:03] Desirable trait for you because

[01:16:05] You know you talked earlier about how

[01:16:07] People maybe were drawn to Zinfandel

[01:16:09] Because of the immediate approachability

[01:16:11] So why did you think ageability was important

[01:16:13] Well I think if you make those wines

[01:16:15] You're not going to make them naturally

[01:16:17] I mean if you make 17% Zinfandel's

[01:16:19] You're going to have to filter that wine

[01:16:21] They're going to have some residual sugar left in them

[01:16:25] And if you don't sterile filter that wine

[01:16:27] You could get a fermentation starting

[01:16:29] In that bottle later down the road

[01:16:31] So I mean there are certain parameters

[01:16:33] That are going to dictate

[01:16:35] Your style dictates and no

[01:16:37] We don't find or filter our wine so

[01:16:39] We're not going to put in an overly ripe

[01:16:41] Grape in the bottle because

[01:16:43] You're going to risk things happening down the road

[01:16:45] But in terms of that ageability

[01:16:47] I mean what do you think the edges of that are

[01:16:49] Like how long do you think a raffinelli's in

[01:16:51] You know I know vintage is very

[01:16:53] You know

[01:16:55] One of my customers out of Santa Cruz

[01:16:57] Came up and fixed a dinner

[01:16:59] In our wine cave forest

[01:17:01] And he just been buying wine

[01:17:03] For forever for my dad and myself

[01:17:05] And he says I'm going to bring up a

[01:17:07] I can't remember now if it was an 87

[01:17:09] Or an 89 Zinn

[01:17:11] And I said jeez

[01:17:13] It's going to be ready for the salad

[01:17:15] I wasn't expecting a whole lot

[01:17:17] Certainly it had some

[01:17:19] A little bit of orange tinge to the edges

[01:17:21] But it was holding up good

[01:17:23] And it lost quite a bit of fruit

[01:17:25] But it was still a nice

[01:17:27] Claret style red wine

[01:17:29] It was drinking okay

[01:17:31] I mean I wouldn't have kept it that long

[01:17:33] He kept it for

[01:17:35] But it certainly was not bad

[01:17:37] And so

[01:17:39] Our styles in Fendels

[01:17:41] If you keep them more than five or six years

[01:17:43] They turn

[01:17:45] More of a Cabernet style

[01:17:47] Right. Then as in style

[01:17:49] I mean you'll have a

[01:17:51] You know if you're trying to pick it out

[01:17:53] Is it an older zinn or a cab

[01:17:55] You'll have an easier time

[01:17:57] Or if it's not in that style

[01:17:59] Then I don't think you'll get that

[01:18:01] That's my experience too

[01:18:03] It's kind of like in Beaujolais

[01:18:05] People say that you know

[01:18:07] It's made to age maybe in

[01:18:09] Morghane or Moulin of Honor Flourie

[01:18:11] Then it pinotizes

[01:18:13] It seems more like a pino with age

[01:18:15] I find that a little bit with those kind of zins

[01:18:17] Made to age they kind of look

[01:18:19] More like Bordeaux at time

[01:18:21] Exactly. I mean

[01:18:23] The great thing about wine is

[01:18:25] You can't appeal to everybody

[01:18:27] Everybody has different tastes

[01:18:29] And they're looking for different stuff

[01:18:31] So you know if you're not

[01:18:33] A constellation of the world

[01:18:35] Everybody's taste and what they like

[01:18:37] You're making wine the way

[01:18:39] You like it and the way you think

[01:18:41] That style should be

[01:18:43] And hopefully there'll be enough people

[01:18:45] That have your same taste buds

[01:18:47] And looking for the same characters

[01:18:49] Are there any

[01:18:51] Specific European

[01:18:53] Models that you took

[01:18:55] When you were coming up with your own protocol

[01:18:57] Whether wine or visiting

[01:18:59] I had no European contacts at all

[01:19:01] I only went to Italy later

[01:19:03] On in my life

[01:19:05] But really it was probably

[01:19:07] Connected to Europe because of my grandmother

[01:19:09] Because she was the one that taught

[01:19:11] My grandfather how to make wine

[01:19:13] Coming from a winemaking family in Tuscany

[01:19:15] And she was the one

[01:19:17] That opened top for menors

[01:19:19] That's what they were doing

[01:19:21] All the little tricks of the trade

[01:19:23] My grandfather passed on to my dad

[01:19:25] That he only wanted to rack

[01:19:27] Wines when the pressure

[01:19:29] Was high

[01:19:31] I didn't want to rack it in stormy weather

[01:19:33] Because

[01:19:35] Low pressure areas

[01:19:37] Tend to move things around

[01:19:39] And the sediment in the barrel

[01:19:41] Or the wine responds to that

[01:19:43] So you wait until the high pressure

[01:19:45] Came about during the winter

[01:19:47] When you racked your wine

[01:19:49] All these little things are

[01:19:51] When I went to college I mentioned

[01:19:53] These things to the college professors

[01:19:55] And they kind of grin but

[01:19:57] They also said there's something too

[01:19:59] By the moon, barometric pressures

[01:20:01] Full moon versus not full

[01:20:03] I think wine has

[01:20:05] The same response

[01:20:07] And it does seem true that if you

[01:20:09] End up making white wine you'd have to turn in

[01:20:11] Your Italian American winemaking card

[01:20:13] And be like yeah sorry guys

[01:20:15] People ask us and I say well we're Italian

[01:20:17] And we just don't have the skills

[01:20:19] To make white wine and

[01:20:21] We hate throwing those skins away

[01:20:23] Because there's so much left in those skins

[01:20:25] When you make white wine

[01:20:27] And you press them and throw the skins away

[01:20:29] You just want to extract

[01:20:31] All those good things out of the skins

[01:20:33] It seems like

[01:20:35] Is there a project that you'd still like to take on

[01:20:37] In terms of Raffinelli

[01:20:39] Or do you feel like you've kind of

[01:20:41] Made your bones on that

[01:20:43] I think there's a lot to learn yet

[01:20:45] And I think there's a lot coming on

[01:20:47] In Dry Creek Valley

[01:20:49] And what's exciting for me is

[01:20:51] In my last 10 or 15 years on earth

[01:20:53] I'll be able to oversee

[01:20:55] And combine that right now

[01:20:57] Some of them are 100 years old

[01:20:59] And then the younger ones are

[01:21:01] 30 and 40 years old

[01:21:03] And god if I live another 15, 20 years

[01:21:05] You're overseeing these

[01:21:07] Old what I call first plantings

[01:21:09] In Dry Creek Valley

[01:21:11] That are still there

[01:21:13] And that's so exciting to know

[01:21:15] How that will develop into

[01:21:17] How is it going to be

[01:21:19] Classified as old growth

[01:21:21] As first growth

[01:21:23] And I don't know if you can

[01:21:25] See that but I think that'll come

[01:21:27] With time where such a new region

[01:21:29] New country producing wines

[01:21:31] That the longer you can stay here

[01:21:33] The more you're going to see

[01:21:35] Happen in a beneficial way

[01:21:37] That seems like one of the real

[01:21:39] Benefits of working with Zinn

[01:21:41] Is that you can sometimes find yourself

[01:21:43] Working with vines that are 100 years old

[01:21:45] It's amazing, it's just amazing

[01:21:47] To look at those vines

[01:21:49] You can look right through the stock

[01:21:51] And you can see that they're still producing

[01:21:53] 8, 10 clusters a year

[01:21:55] And you're saying jeez

[01:21:57] That vine's been here over a century

[01:21:59] And you know it's like an old person

[01:22:03] The older it gets the more

[01:22:05] You're comfortable with it

[01:22:07] Because you know what it has produced

[01:22:09] And it does produce every year

[01:22:11] We're a new young vine

[01:22:13] You have to go through that whole

[01:22:15] First 15, 20 years of overproduction

[01:22:17] And vigorous

[01:22:19] And you know when they're older

[01:22:21] They set into their own

[01:22:23] Their own little atmosphere

[01:22:25] You're in a declining stage

[01:22:27] So they're not going to overproduce on you

[01:22:29] They're just going to produce

[01:22:31] The size berries, the size clusters

[01:22:33] That they can produce

[01:22:35] And they won't over pump

[01:22:37] Where you have a young vineyard

[01:22:39] You can't regulate that

[01:22:41] Because it's putting down new roots every year

[01:22:43] Expanding its root zone

[01:22:45] Its uptake

[01:22:47] To get to that mature and older stage

[01:23:47] Thank you for listening.

[01:24:34] The conversation with David Raffinelli

[01:24:36] Was recorded in 2018

[01:24:40] Because wines tend to go to sleep

[01:24:42] With the seasons

[01:24:44] And you want them to finish out

[01:24:46] Before they go to sleep

[01:24:48] It's funny how they do go to sleep

[01:24:50] And by the holiday season

[01:24:52] They're all put away

[01:24:54] And then they wake up again

[01:24:56] If there's anything that needs to be done to them

[01:24:58] They'll wake up in the barrel

[01:25:00] This time of year, you know

[01:25:02] In April, just when the buds come out

[01:25:04] In the vines, so do the wines

[01:25:06] I mean, they're responding to the season

[01:25:08] So if they're not done

[01:25:10] If the malic's not done

[01:25:12] They're going to probably happen in the spring

[01:25:14] You don't want that to happen

[01:25:16] You don't want that to linger over winter

[01:25:18] Because other things can happen

[01:25:20] In that lease