473: Tomoko Kuriyama Explains the Burgundy Mindset

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: The Interview You're About to Hear is with Tomoko Kuriyama of Shanterev.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: She was born in Japan and worked in wineries in Germany before going to work at the Harvest

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in Burgundy at Domaine Simone Bies.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Chisa Bies of Domaine Simone Bies is also Japanese and had been working in a bank in Tokyo where

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: she met Patrick Bies, eventually deciding to join him for a harvest and then marrying him.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Chisa Bies described Patrick who passed away in 2013 back in episode 441 of All Drink to

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what she had to say.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What was it like when you first got there in 97?

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Patrick called me Stagère, trainee Stagère because I had I know nothing.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Harvest was very warm.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The weather was very fine.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I arrived 17th September.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Harvest has already started.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I came to Savigny with very city girls who were close.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That means the best in the long pantalon.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Patrick looked at me and you have to change the clothes.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot walk in the adiniab like this.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I changed in the jeans and the T-shirt because the weather was very nice, very hot

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and very nice.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody looks happy to picking a grapes and very walking, very hot.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was the first time for me I started to pick the grapes but it's very, very slow.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So Patrick said, who is that lady?

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Fired.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So immediately I was fired and I took only the pictures for everybody.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I did like cameraman.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's a nice memory now.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because Patrick had a sense of humor.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He was kind of a funny guy.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he said like that but I'm sure that he think I'm very tired maybe after the long trip.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll drink to that where we get behind the scenes of the beverage business.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Levy Dalton.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Erin Scala.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And here's our show today.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Timoco Kuriyama of Shanterev and Burgundianna show today.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, how are you?

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: It's nice to see you.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So you were actually born in Tokyo but you ended up going to university in Geisenheim

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in Germany.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: When I decided to do, we'll make wine in Germany.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I went to Geisenheim.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And you had worked with Paul first?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So I did three years of apprenticeship at Paul.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04]: So I was there from 2000 to 2003.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And what was he like as a person?

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Intense.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: From A to Z, very intense.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So very generous and very thoughtful but at the same time he disciplines you through

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and through.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And he made both red and white, right?

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So one reason why I went to him was exactly because he made great wrestling and very nice

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Pinot Blanc.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And also he was very known for his Pinot Noir.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And since that time already, he wasn't someone he would try to extract.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_04]: In his case it would be more pump overs than punching downs.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And he would definitely prefer a more elegant and pristine style than a powerful into your

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_04]: face.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming out of the 90s, he hadn't gone with the big style of trying to get more tannins

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and more extraction.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd gone the other way.

[00:04:11] No.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he'd gone the other way.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was appealing to you?

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: That became appealing to me but at that time I wasn't a big Pinot Connoisseur.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So I should say that my palette was shaped into that direction to a wine which is maybe

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_04]: less extracted but has profanity because I was working for him.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was friends with Helmut Dunhoff?

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: He was a great friend with Helmut, yeah.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So that was my another wrestling hero.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Because he's kind of like that for a wrestling.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a really super muscular style.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't really know Helmut until I read the interview that Gerald Asher did.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And Helmut, I found it very appealing.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: He said he is first and foremost a traditionalist but that does mean that he would follow his

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: father's or his grandfather's teachings blindly.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: He really meant that he would examine new way of doing things precisely and he will take

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_04]: time to examine it before he would try it.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So if he would try out a new thing, it would be a gradual process.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So I read that interview and then I knew that Paul was really close to him so I asked

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Paul to arrange a meeting with him.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I went there and it was 2001.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_04]: He welcomed me and he spent a whole morning with me.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Like many Germans, he is a contemplative person and he's not exactly at the first side extravagant

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: at all but more he gets a sense that you're truly interested in the material than he

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_04]: opens up more and more and he gets excited and he will tell you anything.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: He will answer every single question that you ask.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: For example, I asked him how he does the harvest and how he manages it because the harvest

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_04]: especially re-sling harvest in Germany is a big logistical challenge and someone

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: like him for example, you know who makes sometimes three or four or five different wines from one

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_04]: vineyard that means you have to go through one vineyard one parcel so many times.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's also a challenge because you want to have the best maturity.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes you also want to have a botrytis.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You look at the weather and it's a process of patience and judging and how much amount of

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_04]: dry wine or the medium sweet or the sweet wines that you want to make from that parcel that year.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So that kind of reactiveness and the contemplation is something that he explained me

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_04]: at that first meeting and that's what attracted me a lot to re-sling making at the time.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And you also worked with Peter Jacob Kuhn, right?

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. He was different from at the time any other wine grower that I met.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Very different from Helmut Donhoff.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The Peter would try something new every year and the reason why I went to Peter was

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Paul told me to go there and work with him because Paul had drunk one of the skinned contact,

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_04]: skin macerated recently that Peter made at the time and he thought that was one of the best

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_04]: thing that he's had and I should really contact him.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that's someone who's deeply passionate like every other wine grower in Germany that I

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_04]: met passionate about farming. He asks lots of questions to the way he works himself.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_04]: He is inspired by many different wine growers from Germany but also from abroad.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was at Peter's place that I had my first bottle of radicone at the time.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Very radical at the time so Peter was someone like that.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_04]: If Paul, Paul Fuszt and Helmut Donhoff are traditionalists, then Peter Kuhn is a revolutionary.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_04]: He already wasn't suffering his must, which was not rare but still in minority in Germany at the

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: time and then he also really wanted to reduce his self-redosis.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: First and foremost he was thinking about activating and encouraging all the microorganisms

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: that are from the vineyard and exist in the must. And so that was his thinking I think before

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_04]: thinking about how the wine and product would express itself. For him it was first and foremost

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: to the way to communicate with the microorganisms to make a complex and animated and lively wine.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: When you were at Geisenheim, what did you study?

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I specialized in viticulture so my thesis was about the tannin maturity and the difference

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: in tannic structure of pinot noir or three different terroirs in Rheingau.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And one of the key points in that study was the water stress when it comes to tannins and probably

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_04]: also aromatic component of wines. Water stress of the vines during the vegetative growth

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: is a key influence to how the tannins develop. So I measured the water stress of the vines

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: periodically to see how different they are from parcel to parcel or from vineyard to vineyard.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting because a lot of times people say you know the thing that's obvious about

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: different soils is that they regulate water differently to vines. Exactly. And then a lot

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of times what people associate with soil type is not necessarily smells or flavors but more textural.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I agreed with those principles but nonetheless I think soil type is still very important and

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_04]: decisive because why we for example make such expressively aromatic reds here in Kodo is because

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: of the kake limestone that gives an expressive character to the pinot that I think is different

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_04]: from any other soil type that we find in the world. You ended up doing a harvest in 2005

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_04]: in Burgundy. Yes, I got to know Chisabis. I first read the book that she wrote in Japanese

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_04]: and I was very fascinated by the work that Simone Bies did and also the life in general

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: in Burgundy. And so beginning 2005 I contacted her and I asked her if I could come for

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_04]: a period of debuting for one week because debuting is one of the important operations

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_04]: to regulate yield and it goes fast usually. In a course of one week you would get to work in

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_04]: many different vineyards. I thought it was a good time to come and so I came, I stayed for a week

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and then I asked her then if I could come back for the harvest. I came back with

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: three other friends from Geisenheim. You know Chisa was on the show and one of the things that

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed about her is that she does encourage a Japanese kind of expatriate community to come

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: visit or do activities whether they be chefs or people involved with the winery. So you ended up

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: being one of them. Being one of those people. Yeah. So you did a harvest in 2005.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So 2005 would have been when Patrick was still alive. Yes. What was that period like?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_04]: It was an exciting harvest and you know the grapes were beautiful so there was hardly any

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_04]: sorting needed and just one thing I regret is that at that time I hardly spoke French.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sure Patrick was saying something always very interesting but I could hardly

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: understand any of the things that he was saying except the things that Chisa or the

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Guillaume at that time or the other people could translate for me. But even from a person who

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_04]: couldn't speak French and who didn't understand you could guess that he is a very good observer

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and he was working with first of all the experiences that he's amassed

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: since very young and also intuition. So Guillaume Botte was working specifically with

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: white wines but helping with the winemaking in general at Simone B's and he'd worked previously

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: at Salse and he is now your partner in Chantereve and also in life. Yes. So you met in 2005.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_04]: What was great was that he spoke English and so I could really

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_04]: working side by side ask him as many questions as possible. I still remember because we started

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_04]: working at 10 before 7 in the morning I arrived at the Kivri and I started asking questions.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_04]: One morning he was leaning against a stainless steel tank. I think he was tired and he said

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: questions not before 9. I mean that makes him sound like a hard guy but actually he's

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a really nice guy like he's pretty open kind of guy. He is. In my experience.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of funny almost. Which is probably why you got along with Patrick because I think

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Patrick was also kind of funny. Yeah they were very good pals. Many people said that Patrick

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_04]: when you asked him technical questions you wouldn't usually get a straightforward answer

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: because for him those questions are not important. Patrick was someone who really

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: worked directly with the grapes and with the intuition so many things for him were not

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_04]: necessary to be explained logically whereas Guillaume if you would ask him questions you

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_04]: would always get logical answers very concise. So it was a good learning process.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's more your style as well really thinking through the questions and

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_04]: answers about winemaking technique. Yeah and I think one of the reasons why I decided to go

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_04]: to Geisenheim is to have scientific background which is important but at the end of the day

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't rate high what I've learned in Geisenheim. Of course they're very important

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04]: but I value very much how Patrick approaches in the end that's how Guillaume and I approach

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_04]: we don't for example try to adjust the way we work or try to find a new way to work

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: by first looking for a scientific answer because we especially during the winification

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: we taste every day I taste every morning every evening sometimes even three times you know that

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_04]: from NPMast and we taste and we decide and so scientific explanations often come afterwards.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04]: It's still important for us for Guillaume and I to try to explain how the things turned out that

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: way because then you know we can extrapolate for the future vintages. One of the reasons

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it would have been advantageous to go to Burgundy is that the German harvest would have been

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: later in the year and so you could do both yes and then eventually you decided to move to Burgundy.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Right what did you see as the difference between a Burgundy harvest and a German harvest?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe the biggest difference is that some parts of Germany always made red wine but

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_04]: red wine tradition was not cultivated in Germany and so most of the producers would approach

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_04]: red wine harvest just like they would approach their white wine harvest that they wanted their

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_04]: wines to stay on the vine as long as possible so for them if they could reach 30 point

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_04]: alcohol or the 30.5 or sometimes even 14 for them that meant a great vintage but I'm talking

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_04]: about 20 years ago right it's changing now definitely so for them the maturity of the grape was most

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_04]: important uh that is a decisive difference from how Burgundians think the Burgundians would think

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_04]: that the acidity, the balance, aromatics and alcohol they should all be in harmony when they harvest

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: so they wouldn't they wouldn't linger on with Pino once they decide this is the time to harvest

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_04]: they would and they would rather harvest at the highest aromatic potential meaning not necessarily

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: always 13% and that's fine for them because then they already have a phenolic maturity usually

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and the aromatic potential is the highest you will have a complex wine if you let the vines stay

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_04]: on the vine for longer than like maybe 13.5 or 14 sometimes you would lose many things

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_04]: so I think this thinking first of all was the biggest difference striking difference

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and what about the cellar conditions and is it different vinifying in a cellar in Germany than

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_04]: in Burgundy? Oh yeah very much still at that time so that means even 10 years ago Germans would

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04]: always try to learn from how it's done in Burgundy and so be it pump over or be it even

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: distemming or they would often follow the trend or even cold maceration I still remember that

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: in one of my enology courses I did a presentation on cold maceration after coming back from

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Burgundy and so things were done more systematically whereas in Koldeau definitely when it comes to

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Pino there were lots of creativity people would do many different things according to their own

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_04]: interpretation of the terroir which was again greatly inspiring. So when did you and Guillaume

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: decide that you wanted to be in business together I know the first vintage was 2010? Yeah we became

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_04]: good friends and then in 2006 we were a couple and even then we were saying that we should

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_04]: definitely try to make wine together one of these days meaning that it was really obvious it would

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_04]: be in Burgundy because Guillaume had no incentive of coming to Germany even though he loved loved and

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: still loves German reasoning especially but he's a Burgundian through and through and so it was very

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_04]: obviously would be here. How did you feel about that? Well I felt natural about it I knew Guillaume

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and because the course of my life was always nomadic I didn't have much of a difficulty getting used

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_04]: the idea of moving again even though when I finally moved to Burgundy so that's 2011

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I was already past my 40s and so I thought well I don't want to move again for one thing

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_04]: it's also not imaginable to move somewhere else with Guillaume.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so you did the first vintage and you weren't living here at that time? Right I was making wine

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: in Rangel, harvest was always later so I took two weeks off I came and did the Vignif,

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Vignification Guillaume was working 100% full-time at B so he wasn't able to do the Vignif

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_04]: so I did the Vignif when I was leaving the reds were almost done

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_04]: so I left and Guillaume could tend to our wines in the evenings it was good.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you had been there for a harvest but it seems to me like there would be a big learning

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: curve making wine in a different region with different conditions, different grapes.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. What were some of the immediate kind of realizations for you?

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I think everything, everything. In 2011 we had rainy August and so the biggest worry was that

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: botrytis would spread right and I still remember it was maybe a week before harvest it rained

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_04]: more than 30 millimeters a day and I thought oh everything is over so it rained a lot but

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_04]: botrytis didn't spread like it would in Germany so I started to ask questions why of course

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_04]: so drainage but not only that you know because in Germany even the steepest slopes would start to

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_04]: have botrytis immediately and I realized that it's because of the deeply planted vineyards

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_04]: the competition between the vines is so hard that it would pump out the water faster

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and of course if it rains heavily botrytis would spread here but not with the same speed

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I was impressed by that. We think of botrytis as being such a part of those German wines

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and here we think of it as something that you're trying to avoid

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: because I was already helping Paul first make Pinot Noir so in Pinot for Paul

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_04]: botrytis is definitely a no-no thing but at that time and still today many German growers,

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Pinot growers would have botrytis pinots and they would make rosé arid which is a technically

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_04]: absolutely a viable thing to do because you will press immediately even with the botrytis it's

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_04]: really no problem if you want to make blind noir but there are many different kinds of botrytis

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_04]: right so if botrytis settles on the grapes when the grapes are not mature enough ripe enough

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_04]: then you would not have a high quality botrytis and so even in recently making you would wish

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_04]: that botrytis would start to settle when you have reached a certain maturity.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I know in Germany some people get really specific about the kind of botrytis that they have

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and sort the bunches yeah and so when you come and work with Chardonnay and Pinot and Burgundy

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean what kind of sorting do you do and how is it different?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It's radically different in Pinot well that's also same in Germany but botrytis

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04]: every single botrytis berry would be would go out you know would be sorted out

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: whereas in Chardonnay I think depending on the producer you would tolerate maybe 5% of botrytis

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I personally wouldn't prefer botrytis so before the botrytis spreads we definitely start to harvest

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_04]: in Chardonnay that's for sure so in Burgundy you see you harvest

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_04]: in function of botrytis spreading which is basically the same I think everywhere you go except that

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you know it's more binary you know zero or one botrytis and not botrytis and you will go

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and you will get everything into a seller. I'm really happy to work here it's always a

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: challenge an exciting thing every year but one thing I miss from Germany is the reasling harvest

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: because it's logistically lots of fun and I could always get it more or less well

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and it really tests the competence of the grower.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Here I imagine one of the difficulties is just trying to work with a lot of different plots

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: in different areas right what did you start to see as you started your small negotiate?

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we work with different growers the thing that I saw first was their approach to maturity

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: each harvest we discuss with each grower to determine the date or more or less the timing

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_04]: of the harvest except with one grower with whom we can't really negotiate so that difference

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_04]: is still big very much depending on the philosophy.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you originally end up deciding where you wanted to source grapes from?

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Mostly you've worked with Cotabone Appalachians mostly.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_04]: To be honest there wasn't much choice because you see there's already there are already many

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: major Negocians here small and large and sourcing grape for the Negos is one of the hardest thing

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and it also tests the competence of the Negos and for us therefore the most important thing is to go

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_04]: out there and find an offer and then visit the vineyard and if we like the way that's being farmed

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_04]: then we will buy the grapes.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So what are you looking for specifically?

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Well first of all we prefer chemical herbicide not being used.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Chemical fertilizer is a big no-no from my point of view if you want to have a white wine with life

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_04]: especially because you know it acidifies the soil it's not only that it's bad for the environment

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but it doesn't contribute to the life of the white vine at all.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It's better to plow and the timing that you plow how you plow and also how you work with weeds

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: which timing and what kind of compost you bring in those are very important.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_04]: If it's organically grown it's even better organically grown grapes meaning the grapes

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_04]: are 10 to 15 percent more expensive than the market price but that's okay

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and then just sometimes just simply a feeling that you get going into the parcel

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_04]: the color of the leaves how it's being trained.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's life if there's energy in the vineyard then the vineyard is usually well done right

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_04]: of course technical details but also the vibe that you get from the vineyard

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_04]: so it's not necessarily aesthetics that all the rows are neatly trimmed and not necessarily

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: for example if there are weeds in the rows also in Germany it's the same thing but

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_04]: when there are weeds in the vineyard people immediately say it is sessal

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_04]: that means it's dirty it's not clean so it's more of a clinical approach

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_04]: weeds are no-nose and they have to be eliminated and it has to be aesthetically beautiful meaning

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: that weed less vineyard but that is not always very important for us we source grapes

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_04]: for example from Volnais Saint-Huomins it's from a same grower and he's organically certified

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and he doesn't plow his plots very very often even though the vineyards are beautiful but

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: he does have weeds in his vineyard and that didn't bother us at all because his grapes

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_04]: are small clusters beautiful berries a great energy in the vineyard and I think that

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_04]: translates into wine if you have a little bit of weeds that it still doesn't compromise the vigor

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_04]: of the vines then I do think that the microorganisms and the east population the vineyard is more

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_04]: complex I assume and I don't think organically grown or leucrezoné

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: or maybe the biggest question because even organically you would spray right it's not

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_04]: chemically complex the sulfur but you're still spraying that means you're still combating the

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_04]: fungus in the vineyard so you can be farming conventionally I still believe that you can

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: also have a complex microflora in the vineyard when it comes to an actual ferment and how are the

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_04]: ferments different in burgundy than in Germany one big difference is that the timing of the harvest

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_04]: is earlier here meaning that your cellar would usually be warmer than in a german cellar and

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in Germany especially if you go to mozor or even tonight by the time you pick your

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_04]: reeslings I mean that's usually middle of october end of october beginning of november I mean the

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_04]: cellars become quite cold and so that results in lingering fermentations people sometimes don't

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_04]: realize because they're just used to working in the same cellar with the same temperature every

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: year but actually the cellar temperature is so decisive and so when I came to bees in 2005

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_04]: one of the first thing that I paid attention in bee cellar was the temperature in the different

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_04]: corners of the cellar and especially white wine cellar it was regularly 19 degrees which

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_04]: would never be the case in german cellar and that impressed me as well I liked it a lot

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: because I basically like also reesling but especially chardonnay or in burgundy a rather

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_04]: quick fermentation meaning that it would be around three weeks and if possible not longer than four

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_04]: weeks to give a chiseled style of white wine I have always been fermenting with indigenous east

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_04]: in germany and also here and so I more or less have a feeling to how indigenous easts work

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but there's one big difference in bretonomises they are much more prevalent here oh yeah yeah

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_04]: oh yeah oh yeah they are less in german vineyards to start with I think and of course

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_04]: there are bretonomises in german vineyards and also in german cellars but here if you don't

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_04]: pay attention oh they can spread really fast and so what are ways that you would deal with that

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I know one of the things you do is kind of look at a wine as a bigger picture as a balance where

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: bret might be a part of it but right you're looking for a balance of the whole exactly yeah

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: because we work with reduced dose of sulfur and we work with indigenous east

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_04]: uh that is probably the quickest recipe to give bretonomises their chance to propagate

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_04]: so the way we cope with it is that we help saccharomyces servicier the wine east which is working

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_04]: to dominate as easily and as quickly as possible that's in the end that is the best cure

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_04]: because even if you would suffer a lot your mass or your pinot's if you can't handle that

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: aspect of a vinification then you will have bretonomises whether you like it or not and that's

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_04]: why you like a quick ferment it's for this reason that is in case of white wine we prefer

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_04]: a quick ferment yeah in case of pinot no the ferment itself does not need to finish quickly

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_04]: actually that's opposite but it's true that red wines if you aim for a longer ferment of course

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_04]: you'll have higher chance to contend with bretonomises but in case of red wine nonetheless

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_04]: because we just really give a small dose of sulfur on the top of the fermentation tank right just

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_04]: the top layer and because we don't do any pump overs so you actually don't spread that

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_04]: sulfur doses into the rest of the ferment we do that just in order to protect the surface

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_04]: of the ferment of pinot but at the same time the fermentation itself should start as fast as possible

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that's also important for a clean ferment so one of the things that a pump over would do

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: then would be move the sulfur addition around yeah you will homogenize yeah many producers

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_04]: pump out from the bottom of the tank and you will stick the tip of your hose into the mast

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_04]: so that you won't really infuse mast with oxygen but still you would do that usually in order to

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_04]: homogenize we don't do that because we don't want to homogenize but also I personally don't like

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: pumping during the fermentation or in any stage of wine making and the reason that you don't

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like pumping is because it changes the texture of the wine later or I think pumping is a mechanical

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_04]: intervention right I find it just simply so brutal well of course pumping is a great innovation in

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_04]: wine making because there was pumping we could deal with larger volumes pumping really helped to scale

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_04]: the wine making so we shouldn't underestimate that part of it and also women like me small women

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_04]: me could do this job so that's important but but this thinking of not liking pumping was already

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_04]: prevalent in Germany especially Helmut Dunhoff didn't like it I also worked at George Boyer

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: with Hermann Schmottens he didn't like pumping either so instead of doing pump overs during

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: a ferment what you do for red is you do Pijaj so you punch down yeah you actually do it

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: consciously more at the end of the ferment rather than at the beginning and why is that

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_04]: one reason is because the more you touch the must the more you encourage the east activity that means

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_04]: the fermentation will go faster and because we want the skin contact time in the ferment to

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_04]: rather go slowly that means you know east by themselves will slowly grow in population

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: that means the ferment will get warmer and warmer but slowly reach the peak and we would like that

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_04]: peak to be reached when the juice has a density of zero I don't know how you call it in bricks

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04]: so density of zero and after that of course the alcohol content is higher and higher so the

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_04]: density will go below zero so if we wait with punch down or any kind of manipulating the must

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: then we can have that curve and we think producing that slow curve in increase of east

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: population and therefore the heightened east activity with a higher ferment temperature

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: is important for the texture of the wine and also the nuance and also finesse in the wine as well

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and it also helps do not to kill the character of the te o while you're doing a ferment

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you're tasting a lot to see where it's at and what you find is that when it's

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: drier when the ferment has progressed further it's easier for you to taste exactly and so as

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you wait to do the punchdowns towards the end one of the things that that helps you do is to really

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: get a better sense in terms of fine tuning how many punchdowns you need right exactly

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_04]: that's one thing for example that Guillaume didn't know because the first time that we

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_04]: really waited until starting punching down was 2013 and by the way 2013 was our last vintage to

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_04]: distem almost everything and because it was a vintage that had difficulty in penal maturity

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_04]: but the yield was low at the same time and so we might say that the maturity was not so high

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_04]: like 15 but there was concentration in the vineyard and that was one of the most

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_04]: beautiful fermentation that we had in iso because I didn't touch the must at all except every morning

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_04]: getting a couple of maybe 20 or 30 liters from the bottom of the tank and sprinkling on the

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: top of the tank that's the only manipulation that we did or I did for maybe like two weeks

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and it made Guillaume worry because he would come to serve from time to time and he would see that

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_04]: the juice that we would get out of the tank from below only had a rosé color after two weeks

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and so he was like would this be okay would this be okay and as soon as we touched the must

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_04]: meaning like a very gentle touchdown with my two feet but I wouldn't go deeper than knee deep

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_04]: we immediately had color and so he was pretty impressed by that because abyss traditionally

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_04]: they would punch down from the first day on which is a tradition and especially because

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_04]: they work with whole cluster grapes right so we switched to whole cluster grape in 2014

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_04]: from almost zero to almost hundred but we didn't change that aspect of why making

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so that kind of goes back to the idea of infusion in the fermentation yeah so we could say that the

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_04]: first two thirds of the ferment for acid infusion and then the careful extraction comes in at the

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_04]: very end sometimes ferment goes very very fast once you start the pijaj and so I would taste

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_04]: three times a day because the first pijaj for me is like ankle deep and even then you would really

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_04]: stimulate the yeast you will see the temperature goes up a couple of degrees Celsius it's because

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_04]: you're crushing the grapes meaning that you're extracting sugar from the whole cluster grapes

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_04]: which is love right so they will immediately become bigger in population they're stimulated

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_04]: it will get warmer so that's also one one reason why we go very slowly to go gently with extraction

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_04]: but also not to feed yeast so fast and so what's the difference between what you're doing in say a

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_04]: cold soak what would be the difference there for us cold soak is not important if you cold soak

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_04]: technically speaking you're not having fermentation during that time

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: an extraction while in a completely juice state is very different you don't extract tannins

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_04]: in cold soak I think you can heighten a more fruit side of the wine if you do cold soak

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_04]: some growers don't necessarily agree with that but I still don't think so

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_04]: but that is not important for us for us the most important thing is to work well with indigenous

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_04]: yeast and so that's why we want them to start working from if they want to first they own

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and they do if we don't sell for much and if it's only the cap and we don't homogenize the juice

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: by doing it towards the end you're doing glass punchdowns than you used to

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: that depends on the vintage though because you know vintage like 15 or 16

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_04]: extracted I mean you could extract by just having a prolonged period of skin contact or the ferment

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean the color came out immediately the tannins were there you know there was concentration

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean 16 in the sense was also even easier to extract and so it was harder to pinpoint the timing

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: of stop the skin contact period and then press because we don't also want to over extract

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: whereas vintage like 2017 we did need to intervene otherwise you wouldn't extract much but then again

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_04]: it was okay for us with lighter color because the depth of the wine was there

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and so I think 17 for us definitely have less color than 15 or especially 16

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_04]: depending on the appellation we did do more pijache like Nusain George premier cruel

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_04]: but that's the fun part of it our thinking itself hasn't radically changed but of course

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_04]: approach needs to get adjusted according to the vintage

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a point that we're going over so much because it's kind of a key point in looking at the burgundy

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: red wine landscape today and that some of the producers that were thinking about who are

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: doing more elegant red wines are moving towards more like these kind of moves so

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: doing less punchdowns and doing them towards the end of the ferment definitely that's

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a difference from say the period when cold silks were really popular like the guillacad

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: time because the difference is with this kind of infusion versus extraction the wines are I mean

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: at least to me and I think to you too less fruity than the cold silk version yeah so this is kind

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of what we see as moving into the landscape when we talk about elegant red burgundies that are

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe more approachable in youth in the bottle that don't take 10 or 15 years to drink because

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not waiting for the tenants to come around exactly yeah I think so

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_04]: what has changed of course the grapes have changed the vineyard have been in transition

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and also the growers palette change as well so that is definitely true the taste of the wine

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_04]: lovers change as well but still when I went to meet Thierry Brun of L'Ambret, Domaine de l'Ambret

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_04]: what he told me was very interesting that was two years ago I went to interview him for a one

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Japanese wine magazine and he was saying that you see when he started in the 70s

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_04]: at that time you would really need to be careful about the amount of VA in your wine

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_04]: because at that time the pinot's wouldn't have the density as a wine or what we have today

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you have even a slightly elevated VA and that would immediately break the balance

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_04]: of the wine and so he was saying that we talk a lot about sulfur these days but we just

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_04]: we have to put things into context and he is right because what's always very difficult is that

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_04]: each variable we have should be discussed in a context and to discuss them in relation to

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_04]: other variables I think we even growers sometimes forget about that but I think we have to remind

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_04]: ourselves as much chance as we have we try to drink old burgundies so we stand on the shoulders

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_04]: of the giants so historical context is important and that's the fun part of working here.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you see that shift in technique in the historical context that situation with

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the fermenting and the bijage how do you see that in a bigger context?

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Because of the climate change of course we have vintage differences but all in all I think we're

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_04]: making denser pinot's not heavier but denser pinot's than it used to. We have higher percentage of

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_04]: mature vintages in relation to less mature vintages and so that's one reason why we can go more gentle

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_04]: with the extraction instead of using direct intervention like bijage or even a pump over

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_04]: you would try to prolong the period of maceration I mean cold soak also has to do with that

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_04]: more or less that is a big difference and also the second difference is that

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_04]: the growers children are born in a very lucky times right I mean they can go to school they're

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_04]: often very well educated they also go abroad so they have broad point of view and experience

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_04]: when they come home and start working side by side with their parents they also have developed

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_04]: their own palates and so I think younger generation are making wines that they also appreciate and

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_04]: want to drink more so than the older generation. One of the things that you did which you've

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: referred to is that you made a move from completely de-stemming to basically 100% whole cluster for

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: reds yes and one of the things that helped you learn about whole cluster was making a

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: saurah in burgundy what led to that and then what happened when you did that? Well first we came

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to that because as someone in burgundy who owns a small plot in kibantu so that was sira that

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: owner of the vineyard came to us and asked if we wanted to buy those grapes and we thought well why not

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_04]: so we decided to make a sira with minimal intervention and no sulfur nothing added approach

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and the first vintage was a flop but the second vintage we really got the hang of it

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_04]: so rather than the sira pinot difference it's more of a gain of working with 100% whole cluster

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_04]: with indigenous east no sulfur added and having a clean ferment that insight contributed greatly to

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_04]: how we approach pinot today. What would help along a clean ferment? Clean ferment meaning

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_04]: that we wouldn't have a high VA that's important for us we do like to drink lots of different wines

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_04]: and we do drink lots of vannature sometimes with high VA if the wine has a balance and the charm

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_04]: it doesn't bother us but somehow VA in our own wine we can't really tolerate that we don't like it

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and so the most important thing is that we make piet kuf so what is a piet kuf in English?

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's when you have a small amount of wine that you start the fermentation with and then

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you add that to the larger batch to get the larger batch going. Exactly and sometimes you might use

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_04]: pressure or heat to get that piet kuf going. Yeah exactly that's what we do I make piet kuf

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_04]: because the syrup it gets going quite fast after two days I have a pretty good piet kuf with a

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_04]: very good ferment and that's what we add to the tank. Something you discovered when you were using

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: more whole cluster is that if you add in sulfur then you can kind of lock in some green flavors

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: with whole cluster exactly you have to be really careful about that yeah it was a discovery helped

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_04]: by a friend he was an advisor my friend very talented vigneron called nicole afor he has a small domain

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_04]: on his own in muye and nicole has large experience with whole cluster grapes and he always ferments

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_04]: 100% whole cluster drinking his wine especially his 2013 nissan george ebu was the turning point

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_04]: for me saying giong that okay let's go whole cluster I think he's really talented in taking

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_04]: advantage of the positive side of whole cluster and eliminating or almost completely eliminating

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_04]: the negative side his wines for me personally have a whole cluster character in that is floral

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and almost never has green steminess in his wines one advice he gave us was be careful with

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_04]: sulfur those because with sulfur you will extract the green tannins from the stems so that's when I

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_04]: said aha okay we should try it our first vintage whole cluster was a 2014 which was in a way a

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_04]: fortunate vintage because we also didn't need to sort a lot there wasn't much of a botrydus to sort out

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_04]: nonetheless it was a vintage that went up relatively high in vei so that was a challenge

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and 2014 I only knew half of what I was doing I think so it was a big challenge and when I think

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_04]: back it was rather reckless I think but giong always wanted to go high percentage whole cluster so he

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_04]: was really excited about it and he was right about it I think and 2015 we nailed it or we

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_04]: did understand how we should handle it he was lucky to do whole cluster in 2015 because

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the sanitation of the grapes was almost perfect nearly perfect even with 100 whole cluster

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_04]: pH wouldn't shoot up so high it was really a great vintage in that sense and we were lucky

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_04]: 17 was more challenging because 17 the pH would shoot up rather easily be it whole cluster or

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_04]: not but we still think the magic of whole cluster is that it still brings all the elements together

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and so it's like you wake up every day you go to the seller during the ferment

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_04]: you don't know how it will taste that day you don't know how the ferment will develop

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: you don't know how high pH will still get it's like it really makes you nervous

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_04]: but I think that thrill is something that once you have it you can't get away from it

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: not only because we want that kind of wine but also because of that that thrill during the ferment

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_01]: seems to me like ferments are fun for you exactly it's a lot of fun

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I think what we like and what I love about this job is that once all the grapes are in

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_04]: the cellar then you have to deal with all the microorganisms including bread and also

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_04]: saccharomyces cerevisiae and it's a constant conversation with them how it would go

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and the east behaves differently every year so you asked me before that how the ferment is different

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_04]: from Germany to Burgundy I don't think ferment is that different I really don't think so but

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_04]: there is always a vintage difference so depending on the vintage right the ferment can go very fast

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_04]: rather slow or rather problematic so that's why every vintage is different because you can't see them

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_04]: right so you have to really be in tune and feel them that's the thing that I like but I mean am

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrong in thinking that in Burgundy there's more native yeast from ants than there are in

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Germany I mean it seems to me I think so right definitely but that's again has to do with the

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_04]: cold cellar that in Germany was always difficult to finish sugar because of the fermentation

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_04]: temperature and so that's why people tend to grab cultured yeast and I can understand that

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and when the viticulture is well done then you will have complexity in wine be it indigenous

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_04]: east or not right for example one of the grower that I respect a lot in Chabuilay I should name

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_04]: his name but but he is 100% cultured yeast but his wines have texture his wines have depth

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and especially the really complex nuance but no problem and so I think the farming quality is

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: at most important but I still do believe it's an advantage if you can ferment with indigenous

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_04]: yeast especially because it demands you to observe well and in tune if you work with cultured yeast

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and if you work with higher dose of sulfur you can actually rest assured more or less right

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and if you go for indigenous east and if you go for less of those who suffer sometimes no

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_04]: sulfur then you've got to be alert every single second when does malo happen for you for red does

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it happen after the alcoholic fermenter that again really depends on the vintage because

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_04]: usually we only minimally suffer the cap of the red wines and so malo can start actually quite quickly

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_01]: which do you prefer the long one or the quick one we used to definitely prefer a long one

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_04]: or the one that comes late and many producers would say that that because the red wine would

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_04]: stay unsurpassed long time on the Lee you can have more complex more of everything actually

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_04]: in the Pinot and I still believe so whereas what we discovered and what I personally discovered

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_04]: in 2017 was that despite early malo it's definitely because we do 100% whole cluster I believe

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_04]: the wines were not compromised in a way that we used to know when we used to distance the

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Pinot when we distance the Pinot we definitely wanted the malo to come late and so for that

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_04]: whenever we pressed pinot off we would usually leave the barrels outside or you know we let the

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_04]: cold air of the winter into the cellar today with whole cluster fermentation rather higher ph

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_04]: and the minimal dose of sulfur even if we would do that we can't really put off the malo

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and even then the wines don't lose energy and they develop quite well and so that's again

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_04]: a magical whole costume when I say magic it sounds tacky but I still find it magical because

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_04]: the development in the barrel goes into unforeseeable direction it's really it's really fun

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the thing that you know that maybe some listeners don't know is that when you use whole cluster

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because of the potassium in the stems the ph changes in the actual must right and so

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01]: when that ph changes which usually means it actually brings down the acidity exactly

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it actually makes it easier to go through malo right and so then what's your approach to leaves

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_04]: in barrel what do you do well in case of red wine because we ferment whole cluster so when we press

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_04]: we actually can have very pretty leaves because you press the whole cluster the stems work

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_04]: like a filter so the juice comes out usually rather clean and also the leaves are also pretty

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a very fine textured leaves and so those leaves usually we put it back into the barrel when

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: we barrel down the pinot so that's the case with red when it has to do with white wine then

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_04]: we usually conserve the leaves almost till the end that means until three weeks before the bottling

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_04]: they are sully so be it in the barrel or after we take them out of the barrel we take the white wines

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_04]: out of the barrel so it's not exactly racking because it's more like an assemblage where you

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_04]: put all the barrels together with their leaves we basically don't rack the whites until the

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_04]: bottling we just leave it there which is what most of the growers do

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and then we don't do any batonage usually unless it is cold for meaning when we

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_04]: periodically taste the white wines and then we sense that certain cuvées are oxidizing faster

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_04]: we sometimes do batonage and so the summer after the harvest we usually take the white wines out of

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: their barrels and put them together in a stainless steel tank together with their leaves and that is

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: the only time that we stir the leaves so you know before racking out and we usually rack with

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_04]: gravity I do the big batonage so that the leaves will be in suspension and then they come into

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_04]: stainless steel tank that's the moment that we add sulfur to the white wines for the first time

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: while they are in the barrels even if mallow would be finished we wouldn't sulfur them it's really at

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: that assemblage that we add a first dose of sulfur to the white wines and then the interesting

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: thing is it's not simply because the wines had been sulfured for the first time but also because

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_04]: the leaves are in suspension and they come into a stainless steel tank that does not breathe

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: that blocks the oxygen completely from outside the wines go into a reductive phase

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and that reductive phase we think is very important for the later development of the wines

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: after the bottling and how do you think that that plays out how does reduction in the

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: winery affect later the wine in the bottle I think the wine basically stays fresh for a longer time

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: the longer we let the white wines surely the more that force of reduction stays in the wine

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and stabilizes the wine actually I think leaves are a stabilizing factor

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: that's important that means of course we sulfur them we don't believe that the white wines are good

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: completely without sulfur but we also want to have the help of the leaves to give them life

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_04]: to have interesting development and many known names in the natural wine world

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_04]: who make white wines with small amount or hardly any sulfur those wines require longer

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: elevage period I think for white wines that is required when you want to work with less sulfur

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you're feeling that the reduction is coming from the fact that you're not racking and from

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that it's a long time on leaves not that it's a sulfured in the vineyard or

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's apparently different kinds of reduction true and so the kind that you're looking

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: for is basically leaves based exactly yeah it's not that immediate flintyness of reduction that we

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: want not necessarily we like it though especially when the white wines are in barrels we want that

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_04]: flinty character in the wine and also if they are there after the bottling it doesn't

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: bother us but still that shouldn't dominate because that reductive part is part of the energy

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: of the wine but we personally don't want it to be the major component of their aromatics

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_04]: so it's difficult to strike good balance and I think for some growers that flintiness is

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: really really important and they farm very well so despite all his or her whites of flinty but you

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_04]: definitely have the clear delineation of each terroir but we personally it's it's wanted that

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: flintiness but not too much how do you see the topic of reduction here with white wine

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: in burgundy versus in germany ah maybe in the end it's not very fair to compare and it's also

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: almost impossible to compare it's different from great variety it's different from the climate

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I think climate plays a big big role also sulfur doses of course so when all these variables

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: are different it's very difficult to compare because even someone who would work with very low

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: sulfur dose in dry rieslings they would still be always higher than here in dry germans

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: rieslings of today you usually don't want malo to happen and there's always some

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: residue of sugar right and so that means that you are required to work with higher dose of sulfur

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_04]: because otherwise you will have second fermentation in the bottle so it's unavoidable to work with

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: sulfur I think some growers like pita cune today if malo happens in their rieslings it doesn't

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_04]: bother them but that's someone who's been working that way already since many many years and so

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: they can deal with malo happening in their dry rieslings that does not affect the

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: aromatic strength of the riesling but with those growers who definitely don't want to have the

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: aromatic change in the riesling that comes from malo then the wines definitely do change in a

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_04]: negative direction I find because it's not wanted from the producer I think that's also important

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_04]: you know the intent of the grower so that is a big big technical difference right because

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in dry germans rieslings no malo and residue of sugar you have to bottle number one with higher

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: dose of sulfur and then sterile filtration which we don't do here in burgundy we don't need it

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: the white wines are already biologically stable when the malo is done and when there's no more

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_04]: sugar so if you want to avoid filtration completely you can I mean here in burgundy you filter if you

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: do only for the aesthetic reason right that you want that brilliance in in shadow name but then

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_04]: if you want like cloudiness that's also okay and I find that a big advantage because with all

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_04]: due respect to riesling I personally if I could avoid filtration I definitely would avoid filtration

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but then again that means if you drink great german rieslings of today it's amazing that they can make

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: such wonderful wines despite filtration so you imagine how robust and strong the wines are

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_04]: to stand against sterile filtration what do you think about malo with riesling if it is wanted from

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_04]: the grower then I don't think it's negative to the wine at all it's just simply this light motif

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_04]: from the 80s and the 90s after the star of filtration was discovered and was implemented

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that you could make riesling finally in a very modern style that means without malo

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_04]: you need a high technical and onological understanding to make that kind of riesling

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's not tradition right so I'm sure you you know the rieslings of gian of konma from

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_04]: imich pataribak many of his wines do go through malo is definitely part of the character of the

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_04]: wine and so I think once wanted the malo can be interesting in wine but if you want that extremely

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: food for clean linear riesling style then maybe you don't want to have malo and that's one choice

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I definitely respect that but today I'm sure I'm also a product of the environment so longer

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I live outside Germany the more I'm attracted to the kind of wines for example like gian of mix

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_04]: even though I still love don't have and fused definitely I think you're a little unusual in

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that you have been in some different worlds and some different contexts for wine that are

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: not so similar when it comes to moving contexts like that moving appellations and moving

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: really old world cultures how has that felt for you boy was mostly exciting exactly because

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you know they're so different but then at the same time when I was working for pal fused

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_04]: pal was very energetic and curious wine grower so he had 13 different

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: varietals when I was working for him and he still does make pinot blanc and pinot blanc made in

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: burgandian style so it was fermented in pies in small barrels sioli with occasional batonage

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and that approach I mean pal was always absolutely up to date when it comes to what's going on

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: in burgundy quite up to date amazingly the way he was making his pinot blanc at that time it's

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_04]: ready 18 years ago was also like more or less the burgundy of today so I was accustomed to that

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but nonetheless it's true that the context is different grapes are different especially harvest

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and the way harvest proceeds is extremely different especially when it's whistling once you start

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_04]: harvesting them you can actually pick them anytime right I mean you can pick them while

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_04]: they're dry or you can pick them when they start to have botwaters or so it's enriching and fun

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: what about logistically in terms of trying to get a harvest done or trying to get a grape contracts

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_04]: what's the situation on burgundy compared to Germany well doing negos in burgundy is I think

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_04]: it used to be and today even more logistically it's a big big challenge because already if you want to

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_04]: source high quality grapes then you have to have lived here of course you can work with brokers who

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_04]: are still today very important and do very important work but nonetheless at the end of the day it's

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_04]: trust relationship between you and the grower because we need to always discuss and adjust

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_04]: so many different things and so that's one thing which is challenging if you have good understanding

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_04]: with the grower it's wonderful if you don't understand very well with the girl which doesn't

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_04]: happen with us anymore because we're more or less friends with all the growers we have so it's

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_04]: a very good relationship but sometimes it can be a logistical nightmare because we want something to

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_04]: be harvested on a certain day and then it can rain and the growers also need to wait they have to

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_04]: compress their timing of harvest yeah so I used to work alone in the cellar and then it would

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_04]: be that Gio would come and help me at the end of the day when he finishes the cellar work at

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: bees but the thing is Gio is full-time employed at bees and he has a big responsibility especially

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_04]: in white wine making at bees and so he hardly has time to come and even check once the vintage starts

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and especially year like 2017 when the yield is high he hardly has any time to come and so

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: we should discuss already more or less how we would approach but then nonetheless

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_04]: after that day-to-day operation is in my hands and it used to of course we would have difference in

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_04]: opinions sometimes but it used to be more we would fight sometimes but that's over now that's

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_04]: over since four or five years now because we trust each other and when I'm not sure I will

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_04]: take the sample home and I ask his opinion right and we taste together at different friends different

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_04]: growers we taste different kinds of wines together we have more or less same source of inspiration

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_04]: so it's now much more natural and it's dynamic in a very good way and we think

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: we can make wines of course individually no problem with that but I think the fact that

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_04]: we work together that's what makes our wine our wine what do you think the big realizations for

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you have been in terms of technique we've covered a number of them but like what are things that

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_04]: are really stood out for you on the learning curve I think the mentality that's my interpretation

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_04]: so it could be completely wrong but I think Germans are first of all a people they're

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_04]: hard on themselves and maybe comes from the fact that they lost the war their legacy with Nazi

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure they had always been anal in everything that they do but they have a certain

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: life motif of how wine should be I think more so than here so how wine should be

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_04]: how whistling should be how the grapes should look like how the vineyard should look like

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_04]: and coming here not only to Burgundy but to France I feel more or less more liberated

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_04]: that German rigor has taught me so many things and I actually don't regret it I'm glad it's

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_04]: happened this way than the other way around that I was first in Germany for a long time

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_04]: worked there 15 years before coming here I think especially when it comes to

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_04]: winemaking in a cellar Burgundians are more relaxed and also creative

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_04]: when it comes to red wine vinification but then again when it comes to grape growing

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I like the degree of engagement that German goers in general have in the vineyard

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean here in Burgundy of course we also have many many great goers with individual creative

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_04]: approach and I'm absolutely inspired by that but sometimes maybe because these vignas have been

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: cultivated and tested and developed for so many numbers of years you can do okay work in the vineyard

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and still make pretty wines it happens I mean that is not the case in Germany especially because

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_04]: after the war and the tractor was developed and so the vineyards were rearranged according to

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: the mechanical needs and efficiency that comes from working with the tractors

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_04]: because of that the viticulture or the base of viticulture has greatly changed you have to be

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_04]: an excellent farmer to make excellent wine that's for sure and so that importance in farming

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: is even more keenly realized in Germany I think and that is also one aspect

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_04]: that I cherish very much

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Tomoko Kiriyama found a sense of liberation making wine in Burgundy thank you very much for

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: being here today thank you Levy Tomoko Kiriyama is a partner in Chantereve with her husband Guillaume

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Botte in Burgundy all drink to that is hosted and produced by myself Levy Dalton Aaron

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Scala has contributed original pieces editorial assistance has been provided by Bill Kimsey

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the show music was performed and composed by Rob Moose and Thomas Bartlett show artwork by Alisha

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[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: countless writers and journalists learn more about Burgundy over the years

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: what about that thing about water and then tannins because that's something you studied

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: early on right have you seen that play out because you've worked with really different

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: soil types true and in idioms where tannins are more or less desired in terms of that

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: being an early study and then your life experience looking back what do you do see first of all

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_04]: we differentiate between white wine grapes and red wine grapes with red wine grapes you would like to

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: aim for a higher water stress in the vineyard to have more tannic component and also elegance

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: in the wine whereas white wines you would like your vines to be more vigorous definitely

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: than the red wine more intensive photosynthesis that means you know the leaves being more green

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: so that's already a difference between white wine grapes and red wine grapes after that when it comes to

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_04]: reds pinot noir here in Cordeaux it is difficult because i number one i don't have the

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_04]: tool to measure the water stress in each parcel but then again also the teowa here is so complex

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_04]: especially because there are faults in the soil and i think that plays out a big role

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: also how thin or how thick the top soil is and so on so that's that's very difficult

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_04]: of course the larger the top soil the wine can be definitely more fruitful that's something for

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: example that we realize when we make volné village because we used to make volné village as an assemblage

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_04]: of two different vignettes one is le luré and the same grower also has poiseau and poiseau

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_04]: has a thicker top soil definitely has a more food driven cheerful character it's a more robust wine

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_04]: whereas luré with a thinner top soil and it's on the slope so has more water stress makes pristine

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: wines with finesse and minerality so that's a good example but then after that if you want to compare

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_04]: nus Saint George premier coup les dameaux and for example a volné au pommas it's nearly impossible

[01:21:16] [SPEAKER_04]: because it's not the limestone from same age and i think that especially plays out a key role in

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: aromatics and how the tannins behave in Pinot so not only water stress i'm convinced of that after

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: coming here