484: Erin Scala Looks Deep Into Lake Garda

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[00:01:05] Ill Drink to That, where we get behind the scenes of the beverage business. I'm Levi Dalton. I'm Erin Scala. And here's our show today. So, in this episode, we're exploring the wines of Lake Garda. The bulk of these interviews

[00:01:34] took place in December 2019, just before the coronavirus pandemic. Flying into the region where you'll find Lake Garda, you look down and you see the series of glacial lakes that melted into alpine crevices. In the sun, they sparkle and shine like pale blue moonstones. And as the

[00:01:57] plain descends closer to the snow-capped Alps, you just know you're about to be in a special place of elegance amidst a rugged mountain backdrop. The greater region we're exploring today is this particular place in the Alps where the glacial lakes lie one after the other, tucked into the

[00:02:14] foothills. Not unlike the Finger Lakes, but in this case, they're nestled up against the majestic, domineering mountain range of the Alps. If you're not familiar with this region, you'll hear some new words. Garda is the lake. Lake Garda. Bartolino is an historic town on the

[00:02:31] southeast banks of the lake. And Bartolino has also become the wine region. So sometimes when people reference Bartolino, they're talking about the town. Sometimes they're talking about the wine region. You'll also hear the word Chiaretto, which means pale pink one, and it refers to the rosé from Bartolino.

[00:02:54] Lake Garda is a fascinating place. The wine region, as you can imagine, is dominated by the microclimate created by the lake. You have to understand that because all the water which is there, the climate is very different

[00:03:10] from when you go 50 miles east or west of the Lake of Garda. So we can grow olive trees around the Lake of Garda, we can grow citrus. The temperature will not go below 32. It might go to

[00:03:21] 34 or 33, but it's not going to go below 32. So it's wonderful for all these plants. We make also olive oil near the Lake of Garda. It's not much, but it's an interesting thing

[00:03:35] to see how the big lake creates a microclimate which is sort of unique and makes also the vines very happy, you know, because the vines can take lower temperature, but they don't like it. I told

[00:03:47] you before they like human being, right? Human being can take a lower temperature, but it doesn't like it. That was Gabriele Rousey. He makes wine in Virginia, but he grew up near Lake Garda and shares some memories throughout. I also spoke with Angelo Peretti, a fascinating resident of

[00:04:04] Lake Garda, and he's done a deep dive into the history of the region. He also has been writing about the wines of Lake Garda since the 1980s. Lake Garda is a Mediterranean environment inside

[00:04:17] the Alps. We are near to the Alps. We have Montebaldo, it's 1,800 meters high. There is no one Montebaldo, but near to the lake we have a Mediterranean environment. In my garden I have lemon trees. Gabriele and Angelo both describe the unique microclimate around the lake, one that is

[00:04:40] warmer in the immediate vicinity because the temperature swings are mitigated by the body of water. And what an interesting body of water Lake Garda is. Its cavity is made up of a gaping scratch

[00:04:53] clawed out by a glacier as it retreated into the Alps at the end of the last ice age. The glacier left behind its footprint of various soils it had scraped up over centuries. As it melted,

[00:05:07] it deposited these incredibly varied soils on Lake Garda's banks. They're high in salts, especially towards the southern banks, and there's also hyper-regionality if you examine Bartolino's ancient crews. Analogies are often made between Cru Beaujolais and Cru Bartolino as both regions

[00:05:25] make wines of similar style and increasingly rely on a crew system. Lake Garda has an interesting shape. It's long and thin in the north, jutting into the Alps like a baton. Then in the southern

[00:05:38] part, the lake splits into a basin in what was once the glacial delta. The glacial moraine, also referred to as moranic soils or moranic soils, deposited around the lake have left behind distinct terroirs. The Lugana region hugs the bottom of the lake and is known for special

[00:05:57] clones of brilliant and dense trebbianos. Bartolino follows the southeastern banks and has a classical area that corresponds with old wine regions. Bartolino is famous for light juicy reds and also a salty rosé made from blends of Corvina, Corvinone, Rondinella, and Molinara. Yes, these are the same

[00:06:18] grapes you'll find in the Amarones and Repassos that are made in Valpolicella just a few miles to the east. On the surface, it may appear that Bartolino and Valpolicella have much in common, but when you drill down into climate and soil type and style, they're quite different despite

[00:06:37] the similar grapes. Valpolicella has long been the more popular region and you'll hear winemakers refer to the ripe styles popular in the 1990s that sort of drove the popularity of Amarone and Repasso, but with the style pendulum swinging away from high alcohol high sugar wines, the wines of

[00:06:58] Lake Garda are really having a moment. But to truly understand Lake Garda's place in today's Mediterranean wine ecosystem, we must look back about 2,000 years to ancient Rome. The way ancient Rome viewed this area within their empire is the key to understanding how Lake Garda

[00:07:20] fits into the world of wine today. Just what is this ancient Roman perspective that brings everything into focus? I'll tell you after a quick break. Sustainability has never been more important and DiEM is at the forefront of environmental responsibility. Having set a new standard in the

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[00:09:14] for more information. Okay, so the key to understanding Bartolino. If you look on a topography map, you'll see a fertile region in North Italy, almost a triangle that's cradled by

[00:09:28] the Alps on one side, the Apennines on the other, and the Adriatic Sea on the coast. You could also think of it as a triangle between Venice, Bologna, and Milan. A little over 2,000 years ago, this

[00:09:40] area was populated by Gauls, the predecessors of ancient France. It was more Gallic and Celtic than Roman. Gauls also populated Provence on the other side, the West Alps. In fact, their territory was vast and a subgroup of the Gauls considered their territory and culture around the Alps,

[00:10:00] spanning from Provence across the mountain range and down into the foothills on both sides. The Roman Empire expanded in the Imperial Age and they set their sights on specific regions. They wanted this alpine region and all of the economic products it held.

[00:10:18] They wanted to expand vineyards and agriculture and they targeted two specific regions, the fertile triangle in today's Northern Italy and the area of what is Provence today. If you're Roman, you

[00:10:30] look at these regions from the perspective of Rome. On a map, Northern Italy is this side of the Alps and Provence lies on the far side of the Alps. And that's exactly what they named these two regions,

[00:10:44] Cisalpina, this side of the Alps, and Transalpina, the other side of the Alps. So Cisalpina and Transalpina. And Lake Garda sits right in Cisalpina. Yes, Chiaretto was rosé because it has a Roman origin. The Romans during the Imperial Age introduced at Lake Garda in Gallia Cisalpina,

[00:11:08] they introduced the press. If you press the grape, you can't make maceration and if you don't make maceration on the skins of the grape, you obtain a rosé. You don't obtain a red. So our tradition,

[00:11:23] our history deals with rosé, it doesn't deal with red. It deals with rosé and it's the same origin of the rosé from Provence because Provence was Gallia Transalpina and Lake Garda was Gallia Cisalpina. There were two provinces during the Roman Imperial Age and the Romans introduced the

[00:11:45] press both at Lake Garda and in Provence. Oh, at the same time? At the same time. The third, about the third century after Christ. Rome specifically targeted Lake Garda and Provence for a rosé production to have a pale red wine in both Cis and Transalpina.

[00:12:06] So when you hear about rosés today coming from Bartolino, it's actually an echo of Lake Garda's ancient past dating back over 2,000 years. Wine journalist Catherine Cole authored the book

[00:12:20] Rosé All Day and is a bit of a rosé expert. Rosé wines or pale red wines were popular in the ancient world and it's rare these days to see a region identify so deeply with their history in this way.

[00:12:33] There's this whole history of wines that are called clear wines, whether it's called a vin clair or a chiaretto or a clarette in Spain. And Chiaretto is really the only, Bartolino is really the only region that has really identified that they have something special here

[00:12:52] and dug deep into this genre and really kind of banded together as a group to improve the quality of the scrape and tell the world about this. And I think in the future there will be

[00:13:05] more regions that look into their own history and celebrate their own quote-unquote clear wine styles. Historically, Lake Garda was famous for a few different products, wine, silver, lemons, but over the course of the 1900s the silver industry has waned and lemon production dropped during World

[00:13:25] War I. Gabriele grew up near Lake Garda and remembers the silver industry. There were maybe 450-500 silversmiths in Vicenza and now there are 130 something like that. And Angelo describes the lemon industry and its decline. World War I, it affected the production

[00:13:46] of lemons here at Lake Garda, of lemons not of wine, and it affected the lemon production because this was the border between Italy and Austria. It was a very cold winter, the 1918 winter was,

[00:14:03] sorry, 1915 winter was very cold and so the soldiers used the woods that covered the lemon gardens in order to build their houses. The lemons were exposed to freeze and they died because Lake Garda was very famous for the production of lemons. We used to export our

[00:14:29] lemons to Russia, to Germany, to Poland, to Europe and our lemons were and are very different from the others from southern Italy because our lemons have a very small skin so they are very full of

[00:14:46] juice and this was considered a symbol of quality in the past. It was called the Limone Modello, the benchmark for lemons. Wine was one of the few industries that never really suffered too much in

[00:15:01] this region. In the late 1800s the wines of Lake Garda tended to be produced and bottled as crews and they were exported to the famous hotels of Switzerland. At the end of the 19th century

[00:15:18] the best Bardolinos from the crews of Bardolino were exported to the hotels in Switzerland. The hotels in Switzerland at that time were the most important hotels in Europe and the most important people in Europe used to spend their holidays there and the wine list

[00:15:39] of Beaujolais contained the crews from Bourgogne, the crews from Beaujolais and the crews from Bardolino. Bardolino at that time was considered a wine very similar to Burgundy and nowadays the wines from Bardolino are very similar in color and in taste to the wines from Bourgogne, Fleury and Moulin

[00:15:59] Au Vin in Beaujolais and from the Cote d'Ivoire in Burgundy. In the late 1800s Giovanni Battista Perez described the historic sub-regions of Bardolino namely they are La Roca, Soma Campagna and Montebaldo. In Bardolino a lot of the producers are focused on sort of rediscovering

[00:16:19] their ancient crews and here's a quick word from Luca Valletti of Cantina Valletti talking about his crew of La Roca. We are in Calmazino that is in the area of La Roca sub origin area of Bardolino

[00:16:34] La Roca has a more spicy tones very typical very spicy with a final of black pepper and very sappy in the mouth. I caught up with Daniele from Villa Calicantus at a tasting

[00:16:50] and he gave a quick overview of the crews. In the region of La Roca you have what is the characteristic soil of the Bardolino area it is the more raining soil the poorest soils

[00:17:04] so with more stones with more calcareous are in this area. When you move from the lake from the area of La Roca to the other sub areas so the other areas near the mountains and to the south

[00:17:21] you have more deep and rich soils okay mostly on the in the south in Soma Campagna here the soils are much more deep and and rich so you have more limestone and you see it that because the

[00:17:36] wines are more high in alcohol with less minerality and more body usually so you know this is why the Bardolino Classico was La Roca because the traditional Bardolino is a Bardolino light in color light in alcohol fine elegant with incredible drinkability but if it's coming from

[00:17:58] the right places for the right spots from the right hills from the right exposition from old vines and it's aged well you can have a very complex wine. This reconnection with ancient

[00:18:12] crews is a part of a larger region-wide effort to recover the unique wine identity of the region. In the late 1900s tourism became the new model for Lake Garda's economy. Tourists would come for lake vacations in the summer and even today the population swells by millions during the

[00:18:29] peak summer months. Locals also visit on the weekend. I was going to the Lake of Garda when I was a kid right I mean every Sunday one Sunday was Venice one Sunday was the Lake of Garda right

[00:18:43] and so it was very beautiful to see this little vineyard which of course are very difficult to deal with because you cannot use big equipment you cannot do all this wonderful thing that now

[00:18:57] you can do right taking care of them with big machinery right but at the time it was beautiful to see how people were willing to spend some time to work in a little vineyard because

[00:19:09] my grapes are different from my neighbor grapes because there's different kind of soil right. Lake Garda is also famous for heavy winds and it's become a major kite surfing destination.

[00:19:21] The lake has sister lakes like Como, like Lugana and so on and they have also come to depend on tourism as their main economy. In reaction to this tourism local wine producers really struggled to

[00:19:34] meet the demand of all the people who were coming to visit. A regional focus went towards quantity over quality and Bartolino wines lost a little bit of their status in the world.

[00:19:45] In the early 2000s the wine community there they sensed a need for a change. Yes they made a lot of wine but the quality seemed to have lost some of its international reputation since the late 1800s

[00:19:58] so movers and shakers around the lake decided to institute a few initiatives to bring up quality and to move away from the bulk wine model. Those initiatives included creating regional standards for and promoting the 2,000 year tradition of Chiaretto Rosé also returning to the Cru model

[00:20:16] for high quality Bartolino Reds and also to contextualize their wine in the greater region including the history of wine from Cisalpina. And in the midst of this reckoning in the late 1900s

[00:20:31] and early 2000s there was still no real consensus on Lake Garda Rosé. Everyone made it a bit different and it just wasn't a main focus. In fact at Cavalchina when Luciano Piona made a pale pink

[00:20:43] Rosé, today that's the benchmark for Chiaretto, it was actually rejected by the DOC. Here is his son Francesco Piona with the story of his father's Rosé that would become a bellwether for the region.

[00:20:56] In the first year that my father arrived to the company he looked at Chiaretto in a different way. He would like to obtain a very fresh wine, very salty wine, so a white wine with a pink color.

[00:21:13] So he understood that he wanted to do a different work on the Chiaretto and we decided to press them only to do a masturation in the press, only for 12 hours. And so we obtained the profile that

[00:21:30] we were searching and at the same time we obtained also a very slight pink color. Slight pink color that at the time wasn't accepted by the DOCC, was rejected. Now we are quite happy that this very slight color is also used by a lot of other producers

[00:21:58] because we understood that we weren't so wrong at the beginning. So how did the region come together and decide on a unified Rosé style? Well it all transpired in 2014 when many producers faced a common threat. They got together and tried something new.

[00:22:17] What exactly happened in 2014 that shifted the destiny of an entire lake? Keep listening to find out. It's not enough to make great wine, you also have to reach the consumer that appreciates that wine and that's where Offset is an incredible asset. Offset is an independent brand design and

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[00:24:02] So 2014 was a rainy, rainy wet year and I'm not a point person but if you peruse the vintage charts as a general measure of a year overall it's pretty clear that 2014 wasn't the best for

[00:24:15] the Italian peninsula and most regions score in the mid to high 80s for quality sandwiched between a lot of 90s vintages. In Bartolino this was no exception it was very rainy and Presse Rose had

[00:24:29] been discussed since the 1990s as a possible way forward for the region and 2014 was the year to try it because it certainly wasn't panning out to be a great red wine vintage. So many producers

[00:24:41] they went all in on Presse Chiaretto picking earlier and doing a single pressing and I got to taste some of these rosés with about five years of age on them and they were extraordinary.

[00:25:07] Overall the Chiaretto rosés from this vintage they were complex, they were nervy, they were salty, they had this refreshing but haunting grapefruit citrus aroma and that grapefruit salty thing it

[00:25:22] was like a it was awesome. And I also tried these side by side with some of the higher alcohol rosés from around the Mediterranean basin and these Chiaretto rosés were clear standouts from

[00:25:35] the 2014 vintage. So I can see why after these results in a bad year the region sort of took a turn towards making more and more of these pale pink rosés. Angelo Peretti had long pushed for

[00:25:50] this change in style and this year the results were so extraordinary that the region termed the shift the Rosé Revolution. Everybody in Italy was talking about the 2014 vintage telling that it

[00:26:07] was a horrible vintage because it continued to rain. That was a problem for Italy but it was not a problem for Lake Garda because we need freshness in our wines and it was a perfect year in order to

[00:26:20] make a change in our wines and we decided to perfectly respect our main grape that is Corvina and we decided to change the way we produced the rosé by passing from the Saignet method

[00:26:38] to the direct press method in order to obtain a wine very light in color because Corvina is very light in color and so we decided to truly respect our grape, our main grape

[00:26:53] and it was a big success not for the color itself but for the flavors and for the perception of the wine in the mouth for salinity, for freshness, for the final tannins that are a

[00:27:09] character of our wines and it was a big success and we changed everything in 2014 with the so-called Rosé Revolution we made. We started making Chireto very soon just at the beginning 1975 but Chireto is becoming very modern and popular in the last 10 years.

[00:27:34] At the beginning we make 80 red and 20 Chireto now we are making 70 Chireto and 30 red. The future is Rosé for Bardolino. One of the aromatic and tasting descriptors that comes up with Chireto and the Corvina grape, I'm using the Italian

[00:27:55] rolled R when I'm speaking English, is grapefruit and that comes up in a few other regions notably in Piemonte which is pretty close by actually but it's interesting because it's one of those

[00:28:08] descriptors where you're tasting and you're kind of like what is it I don't know what am I tasting it's not sweet I feel like there's fruit but what is the fruit and as soon as you know that

[00:28:17] grapefruit is, grapefruit and salt really are the two things that really define Chireto. Once you kind of know that every time you taste it you're like oh there's a grapefruit there's a grapefruit there's a grapefruit and it's really lovely because it really ties the region together

[00:28:32] and it creates this narrative that whether you're north or south ties all these wines together. The Chireto, the new Chireto with the Rosé revolution 2014. That was Marco Laginestra who referred to the 2014 shift as the new Chireto and other winemakers also recall the switch from

[00:28:53] Sagnier or Salsasso to direct press method. Roberta Bricola of Gorgo took over her family's winery which stylistically is a blend of crisp modern architecture and almost like the rustic wild west and she exudes magnificent intensity as if a Sedona energy vortex could be embodied.

[00:29:14] It's an interesting place where you feel equally at home sort of roasting game over the fire and cutting into big hunks of cheese as you do sipping rosé and nibbling pentatone. Roberta recalls the switch from the dark colored Salsasso Rosés to press rosé.

[00:29:34] Yes of course as a winery in the past the tradition was to leave the contact with the skins for many many hours and the result was a darker Chireto but for our experience our feeling our vision

[00:29:50] our new modern taste we really need to change a bit living from the tradition in an innovative way still respecting the most important character of the Chireto but releasing wine that when you work

[00:30:09] much more carefully you really cannot obtain a dark color not only the market but what is the best way to obtain a Chireto. Now of course there's always another perspective there are at least two producers in Bartolino making a really interesting kind of wine kind of Chireto rosé

[00:30:28] there's Lafrague you've probably seen their rosés in the U.S. market they're pretty popular and there's also Villa Calicantus both of these producers do what I'm going to call an intentional

[00:30:39] saignée and what does that mean well there's saignée when you sort of bleed off some rosé wine in the early part of a red wine fermentation and then there's press wine where you press red

[00:30:51] grapes and you sort of get a rosé from that first pressing and then there's something in between when you do a maceration for just a short while and then you bleed off the rosé wine from that

[00:31:03] which is usually a little bit darker in color. In the sommelier world saignée wines can have a bad reputation because essentially they're byproducts of red wine making a saignée rosé

[00:31:13] is a way to boost the heft of your red wine. Next let's head over to Lafrague to hear Matilda's thoughts on her Salsasso. Matilda has sort of turned our notions of saignée or Salsasso on

[00:31:31] its head when saignée comes to mind the first thought is a red wine byproduct and in fact sometimes people will look down on saignée because it's picked at red wine ripeness and

[00:31:42] not rosé ripeness and because of this it tends to have less acidity but even saignée in this way can still have a really nice place in the world. I'm not saying that I personally dislike saignée

[00:31:52] I'm saying that a lot of wine circles tend to discredit saignée for this reason but Matilda does something different. I make my Bardolino Chiaretto rosé so the name is Rodon saignée with six-hour skin contact so the grapes are Corvina and Rondinella I pick them up separate

[00:32:13] because they are ripening there is around 10 days difference between Corvina and Rondinella Corvina is ripening earlier than Corvina sorry Corvina is ripening earlier than Rondinella and I make it saignée with six-hour skin contact because I prefer much more the rosé wines mixed

[00:32:32] like that so for me I made experiments I tried also to make it directly in the press but I prefer much more the spicy and the color which I'm going to obtain like that and then

[00:32:46] what I also like is that I keep these skins where I bleed the rosé I keep these skins in the stainless steel tank and I add new fresh grapes to make a Bardolino red. By adding the

[00:33:03] spent rosé skins to her red wine it's almost as if Matilda's red wine is enhanced by a rosé by-product instead of the rosé being a subpar by-product of the red wine. Matilda has almost reverse engineered the process she's still been able to pick a rosé for early ripening

[00:33:20] she saves those skins pops them into the red and you still get the same effect on the red wine and that's why I sort of refer to what she's doing as intentional saignée. She has solved for

[00:33:29] all of the things that saignée tends to get discredited for. It's interesting because at Calicantus there's a specific vineyard for rosé the grapes are harvested for rosé only they're not picked for a red wine so they're not picked later they're picked early for rosé and then

[00:33:49] they're macerated with the skins so it's like he makes his saignée rosé as a rosé so it's intentional skin contact rosé and I should also note that I'm using the word saignée but in Italy

[00:34:01] they would call this salsasso. Daniele describes his way of making intentional saignée rosé. So we remain saignée we are not pressing it's our way of working I prefer to work in that way

[00:34:15] we are an artisanal winery I'm not interested in having two pale rosé one because it was not traditional here so I understand the big change they had as consortium so it's super important super interesting it's something that they had to go in that direction but for my winery

[00:34:41] I'm not interested in this I like a slightly darker rosé than pale rosé so it's just my taste you know and I want to make wines that I like to drink so you know it's very easy answer.

[00:34:55] I think he tried your wine last night. Yeah I think yes it was in the restaurant it was the one written by hand you know. Yes, somebody described it for revolution. I don't know if it was more than revolution or revolutionist I would say reactionist.

[00:35:18] I would like to come back to the past anyway you know but I'm not judging it's just we are working this way and I think it's the right way of working for our winery.

[00:35:32] In our winery in Villa Gallicantos every wine has its vineyard every vineyard has its wine so the grapes for the rosé are dedicated to the rosé so we harvest the grapes

[00:35:44] at the right moment for the rosé we put it in a tank and the day after after one night of maceration we take out all the wine okay so it's not those are not grapes for the rosé

[00:35:58] for the reds to then partially we use for the rosé those grapes for the rosé are dedicated to the rosé and this way every year you can have year after year you can taste our wines

[00:36:13] and if you will have a vertical tasting in 10 years of our rosé it will be the same vineyard working the same way in the winery and you will have the influence of the of the vintage you know so this is our way of working.

[00:36:26] Do you know what era is this? Well here was traditional uh there it's uh Seigneur you mean dedicated Seigneur? Uh not so much not so much It's really unique I think

[00:36:41] I cannot say that is we are the only one doing this I don't I would say a lie but yeah I don't know a lot of people doing it Voila So La Fraga and Calicantus both do this longer skin contact rosé

[00:37:00] which is different from the post-2014 vibes of the region but interestingly La Fraga rosés still tend to be lighter in color and they often get Chiaretto designation whereas Calicantus rosé tends to be darker richer and more brooding and he doesn't always get Chiaretto designation

[00:37:17] but he's okay with that it's also interesting because Angelo Peretti points to direct press rosé as truly traditional because it dates back to ancient Rome when wine was first made in the area and on the other hand Daniele points to Seigneur as traditional because it reflects a

[00:37:32] different version of Bartolino's traditions. With enough history almost anything can be traditional and it's fascinating that both styles claim a connection to the past So the 2014 rosé revolution and the Cru Focus has transformed Bartolino wine since the 1970s

[00:37:48] but so have two other converging factors a transition from Pergola to Guillo and climate change in what is becoming a familiar tale this generation of winemakers is harvesting at least a month earlier than their parents part of this is Guillo which pushes ripening a bit faster than

[00:38:06] Pergola and another part is climate change which has caused higher temperatures and unsteady weather events My grandfather so in the 70s he never started to harvest before the beginning of October

[00:38:21] okay when now at the end of September we basically have finished to harvest so we are one month in advance so you know probably climate change influenced is influencing a lot our job you know

[00:38:39] so it's hotter summers are much hot hotter than than 20-30 years ago so the vines are reacting in a different way and also the wines until 80s here were 11 11.5 alcohol now is much more why

[00:38:56] because it's hotter so so yes you know climate change is influencing everything even if we are not realizing directly maybe Franco Cristoforetti is the president of the Bartolino Consorzio and here are his thoughts the climate change in fact our region in in terms of timing of

[00:39:16] picking up of the grapes going back 30 years ago we used to picking grapes in the summer going back 30 years ago we used to picking up the grape middle of October now we start to pick up

[00:39:31] the grape the same variety at middle of September 10th September so one month before not only due to the climate change because also the way to manage the vineyards change the timing but

[00:39:48] the biggest issue now is we don't have a real spring and a real fall we are going through summer and winter with two weeks in the middle but not three months as in the past one of the

[00:40:02] biggest change when I was young I remember we had snow for one month first knowing was this period 7 6 8 of December and there's no remain for one month now it's really rare to have snow here

[00:40:21] and when we have snow after two days there's no gone because it's raining or it's hot and we so the biggest change is in the winter time and when it comes to vine training the general

[00:40:34] transition from pergola to guillo has also changed the style of the wines and pushed harvest a bit earlier one night after a stroll by the lake I was pushed indoors because of the famous strong

[00:40:45] winds of Lake Garda inside I chatted with Andreas Berger who discussed the pergola guillo transition historically we had pergola training and now we prefer guillo pergola has a bit lower alcohol gives a bad problem with pergola you have more problems with diseases yes because the

[00:41:10] grapes are on shadow and so for parasites for it's easier to attack next let's visit Fabio Zanotto at La Morette. Fabio is in a unique position in the region his family has a successful winery but they also run a nursery which supplies plant material and

[00:41:34] helps set the tone for the next decade for the entire region. Nursery wineries are incredibly special because they are uniquely in tune with the entire region and they also help drive the future of all the vineyards. Now not all nurseries are wineries and not all wineries are nurseries

[00:41:52] but nursery wineries are always ambassadors for their region so in a similar way that Tablas Creek is important to Paso Robles and Hermann Wiemer is important to the Finger Lakes in New York

[00:42:03] La Morette is sort of like an ambassador and keeper of the flame for the plant material in Bartolino. So Fabio's insights are really uniquely informed. Could you talk a little bit about the grape variety that you studied and made your own?

[00:42:19] Yes this is also something that is belonging to my let's say studies and nowadays work because being in this territory in northeast of Italy in the area of Verona close to Lake Garda the Lugana production is based on one single autochthonous variety which is Turbiana

[00:42:37] T-U-R-B-A-N-A and the study started some 20 years ago because we were able at university to identify the D and A loci which differentiate this variety from others that were considered the same or very close to this and from there started a project of clonal selection that now

[00:43:01] after 19 years is arriving on the final step to ask for the authorization of new seven clones and also this request is very interesting because some of them are very far as aroma profiles

[00:43:18] from the from the turpenic side to the esterol side and that's the variability of the plant so we can say that the plant DNA has all the information then sometimes because we are not

[00:43:34] focusing so deeply in the character of the plants we are not getting the 100% of the potential of the plant but thanks to this kind of clonal selection projects we were able to identify

[00:43:48] this potential and now we can save and propose to our customers as an option for the polyclonal vineyards. And today in Lugana that's pretty much the main white grape here? Of course yes,

[00:44:02] the law says minimum 90% but I can say that the majority of us as wine producers are using only 700%. It's the real message of the rare of this territory because this territory has grown

[00:44:16] up thanks to this variety and this variety is showing this great potential only in this special condition of very very hard clay soils. So that was Fabio talking about the Turbiano grape variety

[00:44:31] that makes the famous white wines of Lugana down at the bottom of the lake and he's been really instrumental in clonal selection for that particular variety but he also supplies a lot

[00:44:40] of the vineyards with other plant material. Let's dig into a little bit of the red grape details. So if you draw a circle on a map that encompasses Bartolino and Valpolicella you'll have identified a kind of small area that's famous for Corvina, Rondinella, and Molinara.

[00:44:56] In Bartolino, Corvina is the grape variety that reigns supreme with most producers. It's often made on its own but it's usually the greater percentage of a blend. It's likely been around since at least the 1600s. It's very reactive to mildew and sun so as the climate

[00:45:12] changes and makes these threats more common I can see why people are switching away from the higher mildew pergola environment to avoid mildew. There are a handful of wineries in other countries making wine from this grape but overall these grapes Corvina, Molinara, Rondinella are mostly

[00:45:28] in Bartolino and the neighboring Valpolicella region. Corvina has very dark skins and it makes a bright red wine with tart cherry flavors. It can also take the form of a rosé, a light red,

[00:45:39] a heavy red, or a passito wine and you find all of these versions around Lake Garda in Bartolino and the neighboring Valpolicella region. Rondinella is a blending grape and the only single bottling I could find was at La Fraga where Matilda is particularly fond of this particular grape.

[00:45:55] Daniele thinks that field blends and co-fermentations are important and here are his thoughts on grapes. I'm very much for the blend so I'm not for Corvina 100 percent because for example Molinara that nowadays is no more used so much because it's very light in color,

[00:46:22] very low in alcohol, gives this appetite to the wine that Corvina doesn't. So if you have 90 or 95 percent Corvina for me you are losing something okay so this is why we have a co-plantation in the vineyards and we harvest them all together

[00:46:45] at the harvest and we have a co-fermentation of them during the fermentation. So what would you eat with these wines? Well at Tavernacus I had a magnificent soul-warming chestnut stew served in a chestnut bread bowl, one of the great food memories of

[00:47:05] my life. I'm a huge chestnut fan. These regional chestnut dishes are incredible with the reds. Of course Lake Garda is known for, can you guess? Fish! I tried many different kinds of lighter preparations perfect with chioretto and I also tried some deeper richer fish stews with squash

[00:47:25] and potatoes. Well you understand that in the lake there was a lot of fish right so to have the perfect wine for the fish that you were catching the lake of Garda it was wonderful

[00:47:41] and I've never been a fisherman but you know when you know if you are Catholic on Friday you have to eat only fish so there was no way to avoid to eat fish. So on Saturday you were going to the,

[00:47:57] I mean on Thursday evening you were going to the shop which was selling fish which was open only two days a week Thursday and Friday right then it was closed right and you were choosing the fish

[00:48:09] and they were telling you trout from the lake of Garda right it was advertised as a special fish from a windy place. Lake Garda is also famous for panettone and tortellini and as this guard of winemakers sets a new tone for the region we're also seeing the beginnings

[00:48:28] of the next generation. We have an even newer generation full of youthful energy. At a tasting I caught up with one of the Costoza boys. In his early 20s he had just gotten back from a stage at

[00:48:46] Cullen Winery in Australia. He fell in love with petnat and he may have made the first chiretto petnat. It was delicious by the way. So I'm Giulio Cosentino and I'm the winemaker one of the

[00:48:59] winemakers of the of the winery. So are there many people making petnat? Actually I don't think so a kind of crazy guy actually I would like to say that about myself because I'm really curious so every year I try to introduce something new and experiment try something different

[00:49:22] from the others and I came from another vintage that I did in Western Australia and when I was in Western Australia I fell in love with petnat so when I came back I said to myself

[00:49:37] no I should try I should try to do that especially on our chiretto. Can you label a petnat as chiretto? Actually I don't really know but I think that it should be should be could be labeled I think but

[00:49:51] I don't know if I would like could be something out of the orchestra but I think that actually yes could be also bottled with the name of chiretto on the label. Chiretnat. Chiretnat, yeah why not?

[00:50:12] So what are the main takeaways of Lake Garda wine? Lake in the Alps, Mediterranean microclimate, lemon trees, ancient Rome saw Lake Garda and Provence as sister regions and made rosé in both

[00:50:24] areas. The 1800s it was famous for light-bodied red cruise. In the mid 20th century we had tourism and the winemakers boosted production but it hurt quality. Then pergola switched to guillo exacerbating the effects of climate change. Bulk wine production gives way to a focus on quality.

[00:50:37] We have a cruise rediscovery. We have a press rosé production in the rosé revolution though still some people use salsasso. There's a historic connection and there's also the trebbianos from the south part of the lake. Oh and the new generation is getting into petnat.

[00:50:50] All Drink to That is hosted and produced by myself Levi Dalton. Aaron Scala has contributed original pieces. Editorial assistance has been provided by Bill Kimsey. The show music was performed and composed by Rob Moose and Thomas Bartlett. Show artwork by Alicia Tanoian. T-shirts,

[00:51:08] sweatshirts, coffee mugs and so much more including show stickers, notebooks and even gif wrap are available for sale if you check the show website alldrinktothatpod.com that's I-L-L drink to that p-o-d dot com which is the same place you'd go to sign up for our email list or

[00:51:26] to make one of the crucially important donations that help keep this show operating. You can donate from anywhere using PayPal or Stripe on the show website. Remember to hit subscribe or to follow this show in your favorite podcast app please. That's super

[00:51:41] important to see every episode and thank you for listening. And I want to give a special thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts including wine journalists Catherine Cole and Angelo Peretti. Angelo's grasp on Lake Garda history is fast. His 2001 book Il Bartolino is a good resource

[00:51:58] for anyone wishing to dive deeper into the region and Catherine Cole's Rosé All Day helps contextualize the Chiaretto Rosé of Bartolino on a global scale. Also thanks to the winemakers who shared their stories Gabriele Rouse, Luca Valetti of Cantina Valetti, Marco Rufato of Le Ginestra, Roberta

[00:52:16] of Gorgo, Francesco Piona's recollection of his father Luciano's first Rosé at Cavalchina, Matilda Poggi of La Fraga, Daniele Domenico Delani from Villa Calicantus, Andreas Berger of Vinegoot Turnhoff, Fabio Zanotto of La Morete, Franco Cristoforetti the president of the Bartolino

[00:52:35] Consorzio, Giulio Cosentino of Albino Piona. An extra special thanks to Irene Graziotto who helped connect me with many of these voices. I hope you've enjoyed this tour of the wines of Lake

[00:52:46] Garda. Cheers to you all. Yes I think our region was one of the most known regions for wine in the past and now I like very much because we are trying to go back to our roots rediscover the high quality wine we can produce here.