492: Jean-Emmanuel Simond Does Not Like Your White Wine

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[00:01:06] I'm Levi Dalton and this is Ill Drink to That, where we get behind the scenes of the wine business. Jean-Emmanuel Simon, a French wine journalist and also a wine importer into France as well

[00:01:34] as a consultant in the New York market. Hello sir, how are you? Hello, I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for inviting me. It's very nice to see you. So you, like myself, grew up in the 1970s.

[00:01:45] You were born in 71. Absolutely. A good vintage, I think. But your family wasn't so much into wine, at least your parents. Not at all. My parents had not much interest for wine. My father was

[00:01:59] barely drinking one or two glasses of Bordeaux on Sunday for lunch, but I guess that's about it. So my interest for wine didn't come from my parents' side. And you grew up in France. I was born in

[00:02:15] Paris. My family was living in Paris, but part of my family originated from the Alps, from Savoie, this little beautiful town called Cheminiques, which is just next to the Mont Blanc, the marvelous mountain scenery. And it was marvelous to be able to spend holidays there

[00:02:35] in summer and winter. It's a place I really love. What was your childhood like? What was it like? We traveled quite a lot with my parents. They took me to Africa.

[00:02:48] They took me to... We did a great trip when I was like eight or nine years old. But I vividly remember we visited all the national parks in the US, going to Wyoming, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone. This was incredible for me. Yeah, unusual for a French...

[00:03:10] Yeah, but we... My parents always... I've always loved hiking and visiting nature and seeing some wild animals. So yeah, it's something that I really enjoy today. What was the career of your parents? What did they do for profession?

[00:03:31] My mother was originally a journalist, and then she specialized in graphology, studying the writing. At that time, it was quite fashionable to ask a graphologist to study written letters for deciding whether the personality would fit for a specific job.

[00:03:58] Today, it's not much used anymore. But yes, I guess in the 80s and 90s, it was still pretty common. I think I would be hesitant to show my mother my handwriting from school if I had a mom like that.

[00:04:11] Sure, sure, sure. I tried to ask her a few times about some friends writing or whatever, but she never wanted to give me any idea about that. My dad was not really a banker, but he

[00:04:26] was one of the first in France during the 70s and 80s to do some merger and acquisitions. In those years, it wasn't something so common also. So he started that for a little,

[00:04:39] very small boutique operation. He made a good living. We had this little house near Paris and this place in Normandy also where I spent a lot of time. So I've always been surrounded by gardens and animals. It was a nice, quiet childhood, I would say.

[00:05:03] Yeah, I haven't spoken to a lot of people who grew up in France in the 80s. I've spoken to people who grew up in the 60s and 70s. So the 80s, how did that read for you as a kid? What

[00:05:15] was happening in your life? What was happening in my life? Well, as a teenager, I grew up listening to a lot of American music. For instance, I never listened to rock music. So when I started listening to music as a teenager, my favorites were the likes

[00:05:33] of James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Prince, all these soul disco music. And that's what I'm still listening to today. I'm completely old-fashioned. But yeah, it was a happy time, I guess. During the 80s, there was no economical crisis. Everything was booming. People would go out when I was like

[00:06:04] 16 or 17. I remember great parties with friends. I mean, life was easy. Life was easy, I must say. And not that I feel so privileged, because my family didn't make a lot of money. But

[00:06:20] life was comfortable. Let's put it that way. And your grandparents, at least on one side, had owned a restaurant. He inherited a hotel from his father. And that hotel was located right in the center of Cheminix. So obviously a very touristic destination. My grandfather was the

[00:06:39] first during the 60s and 70s to travel to Japan, to travel to a lot of countries, to Brazil, to promote Cheminix. To try to attract foreigners and tourists. He was really involved in that.

[00:06:56] But he was not a real businessman. He loved to spend too much money inviting friends, blah, blah, blah. And so he lost this hotel. And so he was forced to sell it. But he had kept a lot of

[00:07:10] furniture from the hotel, like even the glassware, a lot of linen, clothes, lots of things. But he also had kept a few bottles from the salon. And those wines have been perfectly kept in a cool

[00:07:25] climate mountain. And when I turned 18, I was looking around in this old house in Cheminix, and I found a little cache with all these dusty bottles. And I had absolutely no idea what it was.

[00:07:41] I just saw some old beautiful labels. Because those labels from Burgundy, especially in the 50s, were absolutely marvelous. And it was very intriguing for me. I wanted to try those wines. So I asked my grandfather, and he said, yes, you can have it. There were like 30 or 40 bottles,

[00:08:03] no more. And he said, I'm too old. I don't really like wine anymore. Or if I drink wine, I put water in it because it's too strong for me. I'm an old man now. But so he gave those

[00:08:14] bottles to me. And it was a real aesthetic shock for me. It was a revelation. Because someone all of a sudden will get the chance to try some of the greatest wines. And I mean greatest wines

[00:08:32] by the likes of Mouton Rothschild 45, Clos Vaujot 59, old Dom Pérignon from the 50s and the 60s, perfectly kept. I mean, those wines were absolutely incredible. And for me, all of a sudden,

[00:08:47] I felt like there was a whole new world that I knew nothing about. That was just right there in those bottles. And so from that day, I remember becoming super curious about wine, wanting to

[00:08:59] learn, wanting to read a lot about wine, trying to go to some tastings, trying to visit wine producer whenever I could, starting to buy some bottles. And it never ceased. Of course, what fascinated me was also how old these wines were. That's something very emotional. Maybe you're not

[00:09:25] very objective when it comes to the taste of those bottles because there's so much history linked to it. You can't help but thinking of what happened in those years. Sometimes your parents were not even born. For me, it was like a dream to have access to all this.

[00:09:42] It probably brought also the idea that way too often, wine is drunk too young. I like old wines. Of course, I prefer to drink a bottle younger than too old. But very often, I see people thinking

[00:09:58] that, OK, this wine is at peak. It has reached maturity. It will no longer get better. It cannot improve. Sometimes, no. Sometimes very old bottles can be absolutely stunning if well kept. And for

[00:10:12] me, it was a revelation also. Being able to access and discover those old bottles was something unique. Something else that's somewhat unusual in the world of French wine journalism is that you spent

[00:10:26] a significant amount of time in New York City and you met certain people who were also into more organic and natural farming at the time. Yes, that was really for me an incredible period

[00:10:41] of time. I moved to New York in the beginning of 1998 because I had finished my studies and I wanted to work in the wine business. Wine was a passion, was something growing strong for me and

[00:10:56] I knew I wanted to work in the wine business. So, within two weeks, I moved to New York, said goodbye to my friends and families and started working for a wine importer and distributor

[00:11:10] based in New York who provided the visa, the papers. And so, I started as a salesman. I was carrying bottles of wine in my bag and visiting some restaurants and wine shops in Manhattan. And it lasted a little bit more than two years and I've learned so much.

[00:11:31] I've learned so much because I've also been lucky to probably meet very important people like Joe Dresner, the Louis Dresner selection. He was this Jewish guy from New York who started importing French wines because his wife was French, Denise Louis, and they had a house in Burgundy.

[00:11:57] And I think he started at the end of the 80s looking for small producers. But small producers working in a very specific way. He was against chemical yeast. He wanted wines made with only natural yeast, wines which were unfiltered, unchilled, no refrigeration work, everything

[00:12:22] to be natural. If it was organically or biodynamically farmed, it was better. And that was it. He was looking for these small artisan winemakers that were not so easy to find actually because there were a few. So, he was focusing on the Loire Valley because that was

[00:12:44] where most of these young small growers were located in Bourgogne, in Chinon, in Muscadet. You would find some small unknown producers producing very high quality wines made according to a certain philosophy that he had built for himself and that he wanted to give to his customers

[00:13:08] and the sommelier and the client who trusted him. And he was so enthusiastic and convincing. And he had an amazing sense of humor. I'm sure everyone who met him remembers this guy. He was

[00:13:24] really amazing. And I fell in love with those wines. I absolutely fell in love with those wines. In those years, he only had French wines. He started Italian wines a few years after. But wines from Pierre and Catherine Breton in Bourgogne and Chinon, wines from Jean-Paul

[00:13:41] Brun, Domaine des Terre-d'Oreille in Beaujolais, wines from Domaine de Roailly in Macon, something completely unknown and forgotten today. But this Macon, it was Macon Viré and Macon Montblai, I remember those wines just like it's yesterday. They were, for me, they were absolutely amazing.

[00:13:58] Some of the greatest white wines I remember. And it was a simple Macon. I used to sell that in New York for, I don't know, maybe 20 bucks in those years. And those wines were absolutely delicious.

[00:14:12] And producers like André Hichet in Minervois, nobody knew about Minervois in those years. Languedoc was something completely unknown. So testing those wines, selling those wines, learning how to promote them, how to describe what made them so special

[00:14:30] was extremely satisfying for me because I discovered something I knew nothing about. Not the universe of the Grand Cru, of the prestige, of the tradition of great French wines, but something more artisanal, more local, truth with truth, something, wines made with their hearts.

[00:14:55] When I used to meet those producers, because sometimes one of them would come to New York and I would spend a day or two touring with them, pouring the wines, they were explaining their work.

[00:15:07] It was fascinating to have this sense of, okay, this guy puts his guts in his wine, that's him. And I was proud of that. I was proud of it. And I guess I learned much more on French wines

[00:15:22] within two years in New York, thanks to Joe Dresner that I did for almost 10 years, testing and learning and reading about wine as a student. So it was very important for me. I remember his distinction between wine and made wine, made being like a pejorative for him.

[00:15:42] I remember he said, Dom Perignon is a very nice wine. It's a very made wine. It's very crafted made like the idea of making it to taste like a certain thing, as opposed to letting it taste

[00:15:54] the way it would taste. That was a real fundamental concept that really changed how I approached wine. Yes, absolutely. I remember he spoke about spoofulated wines. You remember that? Spoofulated wines for him was like goofy, was like full of air, but they lack substance. They lack identity.

[00:16:15] They lacked authenticity. And those wines could be perfectly well made from an illogical point of view, you know, no default. They were easy to drink. They were fine, but they had no soul. What Joe Dresner was looking for were wines with this extra something in which

[00:16:37] you could feel the character of the producer, where you could have a sense of place, a sense of terroir because yes, they were made in the most simplistic and honest and authentic way. At some point, Joe's offering was meeting a new demand on the market where people wanted

[00:17:02] something different than the usual big names and big ratings from Parker. So, you arrived at the right moment. And what about you? You eventually returned to France. I guess I was a bit homesick and I would have to switch to a different company at some point,

[00:17:19] but that would have meant that I would probably make, had to make my life in the US. And you know, my father was getting old. He was like, okay, you should come back. So, and I was missing

[00:17:32] France. Let's be honest. I was curious to come back to France and to use maybe the knowledge that I had learned in New York to do something different in France. When we come back, we'll discuss John Emmanuel Simon's work as a wine critic

[00:17:47] covering the Côte d'Inouie and Alsace. It always takes a few years between the time that the new quality is there and the moment that consumers and even merchants and sommeliers realize it. There's always a gap. And I'm there

[00:18:04] writing on those wines to try to narrow this gap. That's after this. Sustainability has never been more important and DiEM is at the forefront of environmental responsibility. Having set a new standard in the world of closures, DiEM not only excels in

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[00:19:40] d i a m dash closures with an s dot com forward slash id t t for more information. These days most of your writing appears in La Revue de Vendefrance which is a respected wine

[00:19:55] magazine and you kind of came in there when there was a critic shuffle some big names kind of left the publication and they were looking for some new critics and you were one of them.

[00:20:06] Yes I started in 2005 at first writing little articles and then I got offered to cover wine regions so I started with southwest southwest of France so stretching from Iroléguie next to

[00:20:20] the ocean all the way north to Cahors and the Bergerac area and going south to Gaillac and Joranson and it's a fascinating area and in those years nobody was really interested because people you know other journalists were all wanting to get access to top wines from Bordeaux

[00:20:42] or Burgundy or the world. I found more interest in those lesser-known regions because that's where you would make real discoveries. Finding the new young guy who just purchased five hectares and starting right from the scratch his own operation and this is what I like about wine journalism

[00:21:01] is making discoveries, finding tomorrow's superstar if that's possible if there's any superstar in the wine but trying to you know people who are discovering new terroir it is still possible in France it still happens. Last week I was visiting the area of Chablis and I drove 40 kilometers

[00:21:19] southwest of Chablis to a little region called the Puise which is completely unknown. Today people are growing wheat and beetroot and you know there's no wine anymore but there used to be wine even 50 years ago there were still a few vineyards scattered on the slopes

[00:21:39] and I met this young girl she's like I don't know she's like 24, 25 years old her name is Raphael Guillault Raphael Guillault she started in 2019 first vintage made one in 2020, 21 no wine she got sick

[00:21:56] she didn't buy anything so she has planted three hectares she's making a living today with three hectares of Pinot Noir and Chardonnay right in the middle of nothing it's in Vinpays du Lyon

[00:22:07] technically it's part of Burgundy but no one knows about it and it's marvelous to see such a hard-working enthusiastic young girl making beautiful wines her wines are absolutely delicious and when you see her passion and where she's performing the winemaking you say

[00:22:24] okay I wouldn't fall this is so tiny she can hardly move it's it's and it's touching there's something very emotional for me about that you know finding someone who's so talented was so gifted

[00:22:38] already producing such refined delicious pure balanced wines that for me is what I want to do promoting those wines telling people okay you cannot afford the Burgundy from Côte de Beaune try to find a few bottles of this this girl she's not in a well-known operation

[00:23:01] she has rediscovered some old terroir she has planted her wines it will it will improve in the future but it's already so good and it's cheap for 18 euro 20 euro you can buy a wonderful bottle of Pinot Noir I think that's that's really important.

[00:23:22] It's interesting because you cover a range of regions today for La Revue de Vendefrance and actually they rotate regions so you've already covered a few but currently you cover regions

[00:23:34] like the Côte d'Inoui which as you mentioned the market's sort of on fire yeah there's a lot of demand and then you also cover areas like Alsace where a lot of the wines seem to struggle to find

[00:23:44] a market today whereas maybe two decades ago it might have been slightly easier it seems like more difficult today so I feel like you see a lot of difference different kinds of operations different kinds of market reception different kinds of what's possible fiscally you know for a producer

[00:24:05] when you talk to a lot of American critics especially in France that's not usually what happens usually they cover Bordeaux they don't usually cover very diverse regions altogether yeah no it's true it's true it's putting things into perspective brings you a deeper understanding

[00:24:23] of what's going on when you compare a region like Alsace and Burgundy today it's two different worlds two opposite worlds prices have skyrocketed for Burgundy and Alsace is currently struggling to sell its wines nobody wants to buy Gewurztraminer or Pinot Gris anymore they don't know

[00:24:44] what to do with the grapes so they're actually replacing by other grapes or they're grafting but there's no market anymore and what I find terrible is that maybe in 15-20 years people will start

[00:25:02] rediscovering those wines it's just right now they are in a position where okay it doesn't match the type of food that people want to eat it used to be perfect with a rich creamy type of food

[00:25:18] that is not so fashionable today so people tend to stay away those wines may have some residual sugar which nobody wants in his wines today so they are seen as completely outfashioned for me it's very

[00:25:34] sad it's very sad because of course one can follow fashion but fashion at some point becomes outfashioned and something new will so why not just being able to to benefit from this diversity and to say okay during the same day or the same week

[00:25:55] I can drink some wine more classical more modern more tasting like a lot of sommeliers want to promote wines to you and having something more completely different completely try a new cuisine

[00:26:11] try a new type of wine it's just sad that people again are so narrow-minded that cannot have this curiosity Alsace offers a fascinating array of grape varieties there are wonderful producers

[00:26:25] the wines are not expensive they age so well for me it's sad I really feel if I can as a critic try to help them promote them giving the idea for many people to try again those wines because they

[00:26:43] are struggling and they're working very hard and there's never been as many young organic and biodynamic producer in Alsace as today Alsace is the number one region in France when it comes to organic and biodynamic almost one third of the total superficie of the vineyard is certified today

[00:27:00] or will be in the next two years so it shows that they are on the move they are trying to to rejuvenate to to give a new image to the wine but the consumers all are always lacking behind

[00:27:15] it always takes a few years between the time that the new quality is there and the moment that consumers and even merchants and sommeliers realize it there's always a gap and I'm there writing on

[00:27:29] those wines to try to narrow this gap something you've mentioned to me before is that there's globally in a lot of French wine regions a style or a trend for leaner and drier and crisper more

[00:27:41] tense white wines and some of those grape varieties in Alsace tend as grape varieties to not follow that trend just the raw material doesn't tend to move in that lean fashion yeah this is something I see with white wines today there's a widespread trend for harvesting

[00:28:02] earlier focusing on the acidity people want this rather like sharp tension acidity in the white wines and a lot of people don't understand anymore what is a real taste of fully ripe grapes

[00:28:22] either from Chardonnay or from other grapes again it's something that makes me a little sad because I think you're losing you're losing something you you you lose the expression of the raw

[00:28:34] and you follow a trend and again today if you go to Alsace but also to Burgundy or Loire Vallée or even in south of France sometimes you will find this style of white wine and they all taste the

[00:28:49] same whether it comes from Sauvignon or from Chardonnay or from any other white grapes when you harvest green grapes sometimes then after that you you you're adding sugar and and you make

[00:29:04] wines that have no okay they they lack flesh that they they lack pleasure they're just lean and acidic and they're refreshing but the purpose of white wine is not to be refreshing for me a great

[00:29:18] white wine should match food should evolve should improve with age should be able to edge should show you something else than just if I want something refreshing I drink orange juice I

[00:29:29] drink water I drink other things even a beer you know white wine should not be refreshing to me white wines are today are drunk way too cold way too young and I don't like this trend this is

[00:29:44] something that bothers me I I want to promote old white wines just try to edge for even for five six years uh some sir or some some chablis you will be rewarded it's getting better you can start

[00:30:01] to see more complexity more flavors more I think it's that's something that really makes me sad about white wines today look at the restaurants look at what you can find in any restaurants you

[00:30:14] will never find a premier crew from Marseille or Puyligny or Chablis older than three or four year old nowhere impossible I'm not even speaking about the Grand Cru because they're too expensive

[00:30:26] anyway but I grew up with the idea that a premier crew from Burgundy white or red should be drunk at 10 years old not younger Grand Cru 15 years old and that's what I'm trying to do in my cellar

[00:30:40] aging okay sometimes you miss the point sometimes it's too old sometimes that take into consideration the terroir potential and what should be achieved with aging drinking white wines from premier current Grand Cru when they are one or three year old is insane and I disagree with that

[00:30:59] and I would love more and more producer to be conscious of that and to sometimes even try to to keep some stocks to delay to put that back on the market a few years after

[00:31:13] that's what Freddie Meunier is doing with his musini he stopped selling it for a few years and I am tired to see this wine being consumed way too young way too early in restaurants

[00:31:23] so I put it aside I store everything and five six years after he started releasing it again this is great Burgundian people they have the money to do that maybe in Alsace it's different

[00:31:35] in Alsace they do it because they cannot sell it so they still offer five six vintages for sale because they're having a hard time selling it but in Burgundy they should do it they can afford

[00:31:48] these are things I would like to see a bit more in the wine world a point you've made to me before is that just like overripe tends towards the same flavor set underripe can tend towards the same flavor so you can have wines that taste the same across

[00:32:03] regions grape varieties winemakers because they're underripe yes yes under underripe white wines I'm talking about white because it's it's the white sprint tendency I'm witnessing today it happens with red but but red red has more this idea of you know the bright fruit you it's very

[00:32:24] enjoyable like a Beaujolais you you you want to drink it young sometimes it's it's so perfect but white wine 100% of the white wines in the in France today are being considered as something only meant to be enjoyed chilled young and and and that's it and after that you

[00:32:47] move to something more serious which is red no great white wines should be something well considered and harvesting too early grapes that are green you lose the terroir expression you

[00:33:01] you focus on the on the same style of vinification and and those are wines that will for me that will lack the body the depths the structure to age a white wine does not only age on the on its acidity

[00:33:17] what also helps creating a balance and allowing a white wine to age will also be his richness and his right it's the ripeness of the polyphenol and the enthousiasm you know it gives a little

[00:33:31] flesh a little richness sometimes a hint of but right this can be great it used to be the case before the phylloxera all the great white burgundies were harvested slightly overripe with some residual sugar and that was something that helped these wines to age

[00:33:50] if you can still drink great white wines which are 80 100 year old apart from the jura style but in from burgundy or from chablis it's because those wines were slightly sweet in those years

[00:34:04] but those were the understanding of wines at that time today people only focus on the acidity and i think we tend to lose something because okay acidity is nice but it cannot guarantee

[00:34:21] a proper aging in some given vintages acidity will be fine but in other not so good what i see with warm vintages such as 2003 or 2005 even it's going to be the same with 2015 and 2018 for sure is that white wines from those vintages warm rich they have less acidity

[00:34:47] they age extremely well today they can be the freshest and the best wines whereas vintages with a lot of malic acid like 2004 2008 in burgundy they live dangerously and sometimes they start to oxidize so for me it's a proof it's just my my philosophy and my understanding but

[00:35:11] it proves that white wines made with fully ripe grapes can make better wines can make wines that will develop more slowly that we need more time to open up and to and to show their complexity but people should wait and people should be patient and rediscover

[00:35:34] the idea of aging white wines because white wines made from ripe grapes and you give it time to to open up and to blossom in your cellar is something that is unique you referenced wines from earlier in the 20th century but even in the 1980s certainly 1970s

[00:35:55] 1980s white burgundy when you compare the same producer 1980s wines to 2000s wines white burgundy there's usually a dramatic change there is just one example off the top of my head would be like francois jobar to antoine jobar different generation same cellar you try francoise wines

[00:36:15] they're more kind of like what you were describing in the 80s and then now they're much more crisp and they're both nice wines but it's a dramatic change in that case but in many

[00:36:26] cases i think in white burgundy it's a generation issue also i know antoine he prefers to harvest earlier than his dad the wines still have this beautiful austerity there's always a bit restrained they're not they've never been showy or super expressive wine that they need time

[00:36:48] maybe it's a question of taste but i can't help thinking that when a young wine producer was super well educated was been trained was been traveling he probably has performed winemaking in new zealand there's an internship been to california whatever he has

[00:37:08] broader views than his father had at the same age i'm always a bit concerned to see that he they're following the trends they're just following the fashion and because some customers maybe important customers sommelier that buy a lot of wine an importer who has this kind of taste

[00:37:29] but just to please sometimes just to please their customers and their market and what they think the consumers are expecting they will produce wines in a certain style very often when i do testing again i'm meeting french people they say okay

[00:37:45] why can't i find a good muscle all the muscle i buy and i try in restaurants they do not taste like the muscle i remember when i started drinking wine 20 years ago this nutty character this richness the the little fatness in the middle you know something

[00:38:04] today muscle doesn't taste like muscle used to do you know apart maybe from kosh jury or one or two producers who have not changed the style but a lot of wines have evolved and they have

[00:38:18] evolved because of course the style changes and the climate changes also but the taste but but it's sad to lose to lose your roots in a sense you know just to just to follow the the

[00:38:35] trend again today the trend is going in that direction but it may change maybe maybe in a few years people will start liking wines with a bit more richness and less build on the acidity

[00:38:52] who knows i think the dividing line that you're talking about a lot of consumers especially younger consumers actually don't recognize it because they're not familiar with the wines that you're talking about from the 80s and before like in terms of white burgundy so when i talk to

[00:39:09] someone like yourself or jasper morris or you know say russell hone this difference is really noticeable to them this difference of chardonnay used to be made bigger and it used to be more

[00:39:22] rich and now it's leaner and crisper and and again like it or not that's beside the point but when i talk to younger consumers that rarely comes up and i think it's because they don't actually

[00:39:33] have the benchmarks a little bit i think it's generational if you're 40 or older you're aware of this and if you're younger you may not be i completely agree i completely agree with that probably in 30 or 40 years it will be the same people drinking wines in 40 years from now

[00:39:54] will probably not understand the the style of the wines that we consider today as what's fashionable what what consumers like so there's always there's always some yes some some mistakes or interrogations towards what has been done in the past and we'll we think we can always improve we

[00:40:17] think we always what we can add as a new winemaker new generation new consumer we think we can always improve something and do better than people did in the past i don't necessarily think it's true

[00:40:35] i think sometimes it's better to be to be consistent and to be true to your roots and to know exactly what's what you have in your hands understanding your terroir understanding how to react to global warming and climate conditions rather than needing to to to add

[00:40:57] something new just for the sake it's new you know so wines sometimes are not understood as they should be because of that because we're always looking for the new trends the new look at the sometimes they're always looking for something new and and they forgot something they liked

[00:41:20] the year before it's a bit sad it should be it's something you built it should be like a pyramid you know your knowledge of wine always should always progress and should always but one should

[00:41:34] not forget what you have loved a few years before a few years ago i think that's the flip side of it being a social beverage it pushes you more to be on the trend because you want to tell other people

[00:41:48] about it but you know something else that's kind of come up and in these kind of conversations for example jasper morris touched on something similar in his interview i read something from jean marie

[00:41:59] goofins kind of talking about this divide in white burgundy one of the things they tend to say is you're losing the grape variety when you make it very lean like this you're losing the taste of the

[00:42:11] grape variety and i think a lot of the verbiage about burgundy today is terroir terroir terroir and so i think there's a certain audience that doesn't even care if you lose the grape variety yes

[00:42:21] absolutely and there's also a lot of people who don't know much about the war that tell you about this idea of the war but i have you you know who has a real understanding of what mercedes should

[00:42:33] be like versus charm or or perrier who knows what uh what laveau saint jacques is really like in versus castier or other it's so difficult it's so complex it takes such an incredible amount of time

[00:42:49] energy and money if you want to buy those wines that terroir becomes a bit empty a bit meaningless and is also used very often as an excuse for defects in wines you know the sulfitic reduction

[00:43:07] uh becomes equivalent to minerality oh but no this wine is full of minerality no i'm sorry it's reduced and heavily so and has heavy doses of sulfites it's different but for some people it will be the same so it's complicated it is very complicated but at some

[00:43:27] point when things are become too easy and i'm sorry to say for a lot of people in burgundy today it it's becoming too easy it's always easier to say no to hundreds of people than having to

[00:43:42] sell your wines on the market on sundays to people who don't pay attention and even though the quality is great you will struggle that's how our self-sale started so when things is when things

[00:43:54] are becoming too easy you tend to to take less risks also you know you tend to to follow the trend and to and to try to please people who are always flattering who are always telling you that

[00:44:12] you're you're the greatest so those are the ego also in this let's let's be honest i've always have more admiration for someone like this young girl in the pris a region starting her own operation planting everything by herself she's all alone she's struggling and she makes wonderful

[00:44:30] they may they will never have the same level of reputation as some fancy operation but who cares people will meet her who will test the wines who will have a real emotion will remember that

[00:44:42] and that is more important two other points you've made on this topic that are related to it is one this is global for white wine in france it's not just white burgundy although we've talked a lot

[00:44:54] about white burgundy but also applies to laoire or applies to whites from the south of france or applies to champagne even you know looking for more tension looking for a higher acidity looking

[00:45:05] for less rs and then the other is that i think what you've implied is that people who are more like venice wine lovers like people who like the taste of wine aging wine wine as wine not just wine as a

[00:45:23] refreshment are moving more to red for that actually than white because of this happening with white are those two points that are true yes in a way but you can also i mean it's not one or

[00:45:37] the other it can be both you can you know as i went over as a wine drinker i can have a perfectly refreshing glass of young energetic for lunch but for dinner if i'm cooking some fish and want

[00:45:55] something more complex i will go grab some 15 or 20 year olds chablis from my cellar you can like both you can enjoy both it's not one or the other it should be both it should be that's that's the

[00:46:09] difference people should know how to enjoy the pleasures of different wines at different moments for different purposes today again i feel that a lot of consumers a lot of wine lovers tend to lose this open-mindedness which should allow them to always find something new something exciting

[00:46:36] without never losing the memory of your first love what you have loved first you know a lot of wrestling lovers for instance you know when you reach the point where wrestling becomes something

[00:46:51] marvelous and beautiful and you think it can be the greatest grapes in the world because of the purity the the complexity the diversity of style i'm i'm part of those people but when you start testing wine

[00:47:05] you're obviously much more impressed by some conduit some viennese some you know other grapes much more aromatic much more easier to understand than than wrestling you mean beginners who are getting into wine right yes when you when you evolve in the wine world when you build

[00:47:23] little by little your understanding and your and your taste one should all of course always look for something new but also never forget what was your first love and you should not lose this

[00:47:41] sense of origin that was your first love i think it's very important because it it it allows you to put things in perspective after the break we'll hear about another color of wine red how do you see

[00:47:59] red burgundy today compared to say 10 20 30 years ago we'll be back after a short message it's not enough to make great wine you also have to reach the consumer that appreciates that wine and that's where offset is an incredible asset offset is an independent brand design and

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[00:49:10] the nuanced needs of your wine brand but in that context you do cover the cote de nuit for la revue de vente france so how do you see red burgundy today compared to say 10 20 30 years ago

[00:49:24] i think the reds have never been better than today the climate has helped when we speak about climate but the climate change of course everyone is worried and should be worried but but so far until today in 2022 not to mention the problems of yields and quantities but talking

[00:49:42] about quality i think global warming has helped a lot we have never been able to produce such good wines as today thanks to global warming just remember 20 30 years ago in bordeaux years like

[00:49:59] 84 87 93 and all the decades of the 70s the grapes were not ripe it was cold rainy very difficult to produce good grapes burgundy the last real bad vintage also not bad but below average vintage was probably 94 since that of course every year they have been able to produce

[00:50:25] very good to great wines so global warming has helped improving the quality of the grapes and there's no question about that especially for the reds because i think it's easier today for wine producer in a given region let's let's speak about burgundy it's easier to produce

[00:50:44] balanced wines in a warm vintage with red grapes when it comes to white you all that everyone is so obsessed with acidity that you prefer to harvest when it's not right but at least you

[00:50:57] will have the acidity so the whole crowd will be pleased 99 of the people will enjoy it because it would be refreshing blah blah blah versus red it's easier right you make good wines you can

[00:51:08] achieve the phenolic ripeness you can use more and more whole clusters because they will be fully ripe and thus you will produce good great wines with pinot noir more balanced than ever

[00:51:23] more delicious young than ever and wines which will age perfectly i have no no worries about that so what used to happen maybe once or twice per decade talking vintages like 59 or 47 in burgundy

[00:51:39] today it happens for five years in a row look at 2018 2019 2020 three amazing vintages which will remain among the greatest so in terms of quality things have never been better for burgundy it's true i've never tested so many delicious and incredible wines as in 19. 2020 is a bit more

[00:52:05] complicated because it's more heterogeneous broadly speaking i would think that 2019 is a greater vintage because even the producer will usually do not work so hard or do not perform so well i've succeeded and i've met really good wines you know 2020 was more complicated in terms

[00:52:24] of dates of picking some people uh waited a bit too much and so today burgundy has never made greatest wines than today yeah i can say that yeah so i've never done a burgundy harvest but it

[00:52:41] it seems at least anecdotally or from what i can taste that there seems to be less chapitalization of red wines and burgundy today perhaps because of what you're speaking about there is yes it's true because when the grapes reach such high level of ripeness and sugar content

[00:52:58] such as in 2019 and 2020 why would you chapitalize and again i know some very very good producers and which who make wines i really love who have chapitalized in vintages like 19 or 20

[00:53:18] because they think it's a little tool that they still like to use and they don't want to lose this opportunity so of course they will not add one gram of sugar but they're lowering the

[00:53:33] the level but still they want to do it and everyone in 21 will say yes we have chapitalized again because we felt it was needed and not everyone will like a 12% alcohol you may expect a little bit more it's a question of tests question of balance

[00:53:57] i personally think that chapitalizing can be useful if needed in some cases it's not needed but i think one should not go too far in this idea of non-interventionist winemaking can be marvelous can be great when everything is set when nature is perfect but

[00:54:24] but burgundy is tricky burgundy can be complicated you know you can have problems with the fermentation you can have problem with the malolactic your cellar is not cold enough it can be complicated

[00:54:35] to perform the right winemaking and what i hear and what i witness also from a lot of wine producers recently is that in vintages like 18 19 and even 20 sometimes they're having more and more of a hard

[00:54:51] time achieving the right winemaking process starting the fermentation when they would like to so a little intervention a little chaptalization sometimes a little adding this or that will help in a in a it becomes more and more complicated wine producers such as Ganvar in the Jura or

[00:55:14] others have said this i i don't know to vinifier anymore the way we used to work 10 years ago okay it was easy every year we could do a little bit the same with global warming the grapes are reaching

[00:55:30] sometimes such high content of polyphenol such high level of ripeness they they cannot work in the same way they used to if some wine producers unfortunately have gone so fast to commit suicide it's also because of these problems they they were witnessing a whole harvest

[00:55:52] going into vinegar they didn't know how to do it even experienced and skilled wine producers like Dominique Bélard they they had no idea how to do it i didn't realize that that was a factor

[00:56:05] about that was a factor among many other factors of course but but as a wine producer today you can lose a little bit the understanding of what should be done because these raw materials that you get

[00:56:18] with the new patterns of the weather and of the climate is not what they have learned when you know when they started doing wine it's not easy sometimes in burgundy cellars not that often but sometimes i've wondered in vintages like 18 and hot sunny vintages whether

[00:56:37] there was a little acidification going on in red i've wondered that a few times yeah that's a bad that's a bad idea that's a very bad idea i'm completely against that and i think it's a big

[00:56:47] mistake everyone who would today test wines from 2003 which have been acidified it's plain to see that the wines are they lack balance that they have gone in a wrong direction so one should not

[00:57:03] do that for sure again if the grapes are ripe but not too ripe uh if you pick the right moment okay you may lack a little sense of acidity in the but again if you have a good terroir

[00:57:22] not everyone has a good terroir but if if you have a good terroir and if you know how to vinify and if you if you have enough self-confidence also be patient time will always

[00:57:35] make them come back and very often does a new vintage taste super well at the beginning and then it will close down and take sometimes many years to come around and to and to blossom and to

[00:57:48] open again difficult warm vintages which may seem to lack natural acidity for me is bad winemaking practices in the vineyards also you can by adjusting the the many little things choosing the right sterilizing way stop trimming the the leaves you can add some natural acidity

[00:58:17] and this is something you see with people who are organic and working with biodynamics so the good answer to a burgundian producer saying oh i have to acidify because there's too much alcohol it's

[00:58:29] not going to be balanced and i don't feel acidity say okay but rather than doing some correction in your in the winemaking process try to think what you can improve in your vineyard because this is

[00:58:41] where you will get the good balance in your grapes i think something else you already referred to is whole cluster use and more use of stems and that seems to be definitely a trend or something

[00:58:55] that's happened in the last say 10 years in red burgundy and sometimes i wonder if that's an attempt to add freshness or somehow related to ripeness maybe the stems themselves are riper

[00:59:07] that sort of thing it is it is definitely uh you will meet a lot of producers saying today okay yes i have added i've started adding a little percentage and i'm increasing this percentage of all clusters

[00:59:20] because i feel that my wines have more freshness so obviously all clusters can be a tool but one should remember that some producers have always used whole clusters for sometimes 40 50 years like

[00:59:36] domaine du jacque or others and so that cannot be a tool today to if you want more freshness it's it's a question of style honestly i have no preconceived ideas i love some wines made with

[00:59:49] 100 percent whole clusters and i love some wines which can come from completely distant grapes so i can like both but i see more and more all clusters being used also because there's better ripening conditions but not always it's not because you have a super warm and sunny year

[01:00:11] with a lot of drought and you know that the the stems will will reach the perfect ripening the perfect ripening for the stems for me would take a slow long maturation process with i would say

[01:00:29] a late harvest but something more september you know harvesting end of september with cool north wind bringing lower temperature at night so so this kind of pattern this i think is when you will

[01:00:42] get the perfect ripeness for the whole clusters but i also witnessed some producers like cecile trombler for instance who's making quite impressive wines as we know she told me that in 2020 and 19

[01:00:57] she has used very few if none all clusters because she she prefers she has seen that in her wine in her style anyway the use of all clusters gives better results in cooler vintages like 2017 she

[01:01:15] has used a lot of all clusters in 17 and much less in 18 19 20 and it's also it also depends on on the quality of the raw material of the of the vine because with some clones you will never be

[01:01:29] able to get the good ripeness for all clusters so you have to pay attention to a lot of details and it's sometimes too simplistic to say okay you have people doing all clusters and people who don't

[01:01:43] i think one has to find a good balance one has to find the style that you're looking for most of the producers i know and i'm i'm seeing in burgundy today they say okay well yeah okay this year we

[01:01:55] did 30 percent all clusters on average this year 17 but very few will do today and and i see there's a trend there's an evolution very few producer will say okay now we every year we do 100 all

[01:02:08] clusters or with the stem 100 you have to adjust you have to find some variation depending on what nature gives you something else i hear in burgundy is that the great material is more extractable today that it more easily gives extraction than it used to when people were

[01:02:28] doing more punchdowns and that may be true or it may not be true but certain people seem to be reacting off that idea and changing up their style in some way or another even people that i

[01:02:39] think are associated with a fair amount of extraction seem to be dialing it back how much extraction they want to do at least in certain crews completely no that's what we can witness

[01:02:49] with many when you test that many estates uh people like jugapy or other mortar or the extract less and less there's two two ways of explaining that it's also a fashionable trend to to produce less extracted more infused red wines again in burgundy nobody does a hundred percent

[01:03:13] new oak with a heavy punching down punching over and you don't want to extract too much you want to respect also the character of the pinot noir and to and if you want to to have the

[01:03:26] this sense of terroir you you have to be light-handed for sure and it's true also that in warm vintages such as 18 19 you have so much ripeness and tannins and the grapes are quite thick

[01:03:42] and ripe if you extract too much those wines will become monsters they will become undrinkable they will become too big too dark to you know why do we still mention 47 or 59 it's because they had exceptional weather patterns they were able to to harvest super ripe grapes

[01:04:07] and they did not have this light hand they were doing the way they were vinifying 58 which was cool and acidic and and they needed to extract some color some some raw materials so when you

[01:04:21] do this kind of thing in a in a super ripe vintage you produce wines that probably will be undrinkable for one or two generations and will come around after 50 years some some legendary wines like some 59 today that's what happened there some producers still have them in the cellar

[01:04:43] because the wines were not good to drink for 40 50 years you know so those legendary vintages come from that and i think it's it's wise to adjust and in vintages like 18 or 19 or 2020

[01:04:59] to try to make some infusion to try to not to extract too much because you already have so much color so much intensity so much depth of flavor why would you add tannins and mix and

[01:05:11] create such a strong undrinkable beast you know it makes sense i think they're doing it in the right way something that took me a while to fully grasp in terms of visiting burgundy and tasting

[01:05:23] the wines was the duality or the the split between people who like a delayed mallow in red and people who like a quick mallow on one side delayed mallow would be like rumier and on the quicker

[01:05:38] side would be like russo both good wines but there's a fundamental difference there in the texture of the wine obviously there's multi-factors here that have to do with yields and vineyards and terroir differences and handling and all kinds of different ways but it does seem like a fundamental

[01:05:57] difference if you do it one way or another this this one technique about how and when you time mallow if you're gonna just let it happen or whether you're gonna like draw it out seems to

[01:06:09] really have a mark in the final wine it definitely has an impact on the final wine i tend to favor the ones who let it happen and not try to to force it to push it too hard because obviously you will

[01:06:24] have to warm up the cellar and it's not always accurate you know when when do you start when do you stop changes of temperatures is is not it's manipulated you know it you you create something

[01:06:41] that that doesn't suit the wine but let's not forget the fact that also the the start of the mallows depend on the temperature of the cellar and even in burgundy you can have some very deep

[01:06:57] buried cellar where mallows will never start before next spring and you will have warmer cellars where mallow always starts right after the alcoholic fermentation and sometimes november december and it starts and it lasts for a week or two and then it's gone so people may say yes i

[01:07:18] prefer this i prefer that but they have to do with what what they have in their state with the cellar they have and i see i see a lot of producers also trying to buy new cellars or trying to dig

[01:07:31] to trying to extend their buildings in order to have cooler cellars because today cooler cellars of course is better for for the elvage but also much better for delayed mallows as far as i'm

[01:07:48] concerned i i always tend to find that i wouldn't say the wines are better but i think they are better built for aging when the mallows is long and takes time but it shouldn't be too long either

[01:08:04] i remember when i was testing the 2020 in burgundy in november some producers had still mallow going on and sometimes not even started almost a year after the harvest so what i'm witnessing today in burgundy with the last three four vintages is an incredible array of

[01:08:27] different situations from one cellar to another different situations in terms of dates of picking but also what's going on in the cellar is the fermentation starting by itself easily how will the mallow react so it becomes more and more unpredictable and and complicated

[01:08:50] that's the feeling i have i think that's a really astute comment the more i visited burgundy the more i've realized how complex this is with all these different permutations of this

[01:09:01] and and quite a few good producers like there's a lot of regions you would go to that are famous regions but there's like 10 or 20 or 30 max good producers yes but you go to burgundy there's a

[01:09:14] lot of great producers you go to 30 good producers and you still feel like you missed quite a few you know when you leave i think that's really true and i think that uh joker in a pack here is

[01:09:25] climate change where people are really reassessing there's some generational change going on here too but what are things that you think are really fundamentals right now from saying okay this is one way and this is another in red burgundy well what i'm witnessing again i'm i'm not

[01:09:48] i would say i'm fully convinced but but i'm convinced until something else happened that proves the the issue will be much more complicated than i thought but for instance stopping trimming the vines is in my opinion something that will help keeping some freshness so you're saying like

[01:10:15] not hedging as much like allowing higher canopy and and changing the the the trellising system also going from in burgundy some people are doing that i'm going from from guillou or cordon to echelon like in cotrotti people so single stake yes so like biso for example that's what

[01:10:38] trappé in jovois has done that's what arnoulasho has been doing in the last few years they have completely changed all their little parcels and you can see more and more of them every year you

[01:10:52] go to burgundy you see one or two new producers starting to work this way of course you have more more leaves usually smaller grapes less quantity so it's not everyone can afford to do that

[01:11:07] in considering the the very small last vintages but you get an incredible perfect ripeness with high acidity and a delicacy of tannins you get a sense of harmony those wines they feel they're

[01:11:27] i don't know they're they're serene they're zen like you know and when you test that it it it's really it's it's really impressive to witness and you can make a link with this new way

[01:11:42] of working in the vineyard that for me is a super it's it's probably one of the most interesting evolutions i've seen recently in burgundy in terms of our work done in the vineyard can can really

[01:11:55] affect the taste and the and the overall balance of the wine. And i know you're a big fan of what Arnaud Lechaux is doing in recent vintages and you're a fan of those wines and one of the things

[01:12:07] that he's doing in the vineyard is exactly what you're talking about moving towards that. Among many other things because he also has the sheeps in the vineyard i mean many many little things. And he and some others who are looking at higher trellising often reference Loire

[01:12:24] in that conversation. Yes of course i should have mentioned her she was the she was the first and if you get the chance to test some of our wines yes you it's plain to see

[01:12:36] there is there is some kind of magic but magic in a great great wine comes from an infinity of little details so stopping the trimming of the vines is one of those little details among many

[01:12:51] others. But that's something because of the climate change that is something that can have a real impact and i don't want to foresee what's going to happen but i think in the years to come we will

[01:13:06] see more and more producers working this way. What do you think about the use of lise in red burgundy? Very important extremely important even in even in vintages where you can think there's

[01:13:19] too much lise and you want to get rid of it and you you want something lighter no the the edging on the lise is paramount it's it's it also helps building a wine for the future it will allow him

[01:13:36] to to nourish and to to get all the components needed for the for the complexity and the edging there are also a trend today that tends to be less and less reduction in the wines

[01:13:51] maybe also because the grapes are riper than they used to be so it explains you know the lower level of reductive character that usually came from the lise also. So in the past the lise were not so welcome sometimes today the lise they're nourishing the wines they

[01:14:16] they're getting everything that the wine needs and there is no problem of heavy reduction than they used to be so so the lise are more welcome than ever. Some other topics that seem worth

[01:14:30] talking about in terms of red burgundy would be pumping it seems like some people are really making efforts to either pump more gently or not to pump grapes for example or to pump juice and being equipped by gravity also when you renovate your cellar very often you

[01:14:48] you're looking for that yes it does it does have an an important effect on the wines what i'm witnessing also more and more is is producer saying oh i i would love to i would

[01:15:01] love to bottle barrel by barrel now more and more you know because this is probably the right moment where you can lose most when you don't perform when you don't bottle yourself

[01:15:17] also when you have to wait for the guy to come with his machine you know if you bottle barrel by barrel of course you will you can have bottle variation but what will get in the bottle

[01:15:31] is pristine will not suffer from interferences from the not so clean machine or something that can pollute the cellar whatever of course pumping is important but also pumping in terms of blending in a vat before bottling i think they're becoming more and more aware of the importance

[01:15:57] of taking the greatest care possible of the quality of the juice right before bottling i cannot think of many really good producers damaging the quality of the the wine by

[01:16:13] doing too much pumping or at least not in burgundy today one of the things i've really realized in my own progression is that traveling to burgundy and tasting there fairly regularly has made me a better

[01:16:26] taster probably more than any other region have there been revelations for you along the way in terms of tasting wine in cellars i agree with you i would say that testing a lot of burgundies

[01:16:42] makes you a better tester because you have to pay attention to such extremely subtle variations between terroirs, between styles you can sometimes you you test the oak even if the

[01:16:57] oak is not noticeable but you you learn what a wine aged in a barrel from francois frère will taste like compared to a barrel from taronso or from another copper you learn all these very

[01:17:13] subtle differences because pinot noir has this level of transparency that almost no other red grapes in my opinion has in the world so if you test burgundy often if you test often in burgundy

[01:17:28] and if you visit also quite a large array of different producers you will improve your understanding and any and your taste will become more subtle more more more demanding also going forward we've said now that climate change has affected burgundy up to this point and

[01:17:48] of course we don't know what's going to happen with climate change going forward and neither do the vine growers honestly but what do you suppose will happen in the next 10 or 20 years when it comes to making wine in burgundy

[01:18:04] more unpredictability definitely what i see as a trend is that wine producers must be prepared to to have extremely small yields because frost can happen again extreme drought can happen again i hope fires will not happen but who knows new diseases

[01:18:25] may spread you know a few years ago we had the suzuki fly which has done a lot of damages just right before harvest well who knows who knows what's going to happen you know covid would have

[01:18:38] been unexpected for everyone a few years ago so everything can happen unfortunately we have to be ready for the most unpredictable events so i think burgundy has a unique chance today they have

[01:18:57] worldwide demand they can sell to who they want at almost the price they want it may not last so they should if i had to give one advice to some producers and a lot of them have already

[01:19:14] understood that but they have to keep some wines in the cellar they have to increase the inventory even though it costs money every year because in france every year you pay taxes on the amount of

[01:19:29] money you have in your cellar but they have to increase that because it's going to happen again in a given vintage they may they may have almost nothing to sell so if they keep wines and try to

[01:19:46] to to smooth everything and to always have a little wines to sell but start aging also a few wines because again as we mentioned some wines producer are upset that their wines are drunk

[01:20:04] way too young way too early in restaurants or in foreign markets if you want to do justice to your wines and to your terroir and to enable people to enjoy those wines in the best way they can afford

[01:20:20] to store and to release later and save some wines that's good for the treasury for the you know all around sales but also what fred munier was doing for his musini i would love to see eric rousseau

[01:20:36] doing the same for the chambartin i would love to see someone else doing the same for some grand cru because there's no point in drinking those great marvelous wines way too young so

[01:20:51] this is one of the trend i would see becoming more and more important in the years to come another area that makes a lot of pinot noir in addition to burgundy that you also cover for

[01:21:04] la revue de vins de france is alsace and one of the things that you've really highlighted to me in the past is there's a lot of good value pinot noir in alsace extremely good value

[01:21:14] the most expensive pinot noir in alsace must be the ones from valentin zeuslin and from alberman so something like 70 euro 80 euro bottle of the top top pinot noir from alsace for that for that sum of money sometimes you can hardly purchase a village in burgundy so yes alsace

[01:21:36] has a strong strong future for pinot noir but it was the case in the past during the middle age alsace was extremely well known for the quality of his red wines it's happening today thanks to

[01:21:48] global warming again and thanks to a younger generation of producers who also have learned how to cope with pinot noir how to keep freshness or to express more terroir in the wines because

[01:22:04] pinot noir 20 years ago in alsace they were all using old casks sometimes a bit dusty not so clean you used to have a lot of dryness in the tannins which are not perfectly right i mean the the

[01:22:19] style has changed a lot but many people don't know about it because when you think pinot noir of course burgundy draws all the attention and you never go to alsace i think the shape of the bottle

[01:22:31] can can can be a problem for some people also you know they like they like the burgundy or bordeaux shape but the but alsace has such a strong image for white wine that it will take some time

[01:22:45] unfortunately before the the red wines will get a great recognition but for those who really want to have great pinot noir and spending a reasonable amount of money my advice would be try some of the

[01:23:02] great producers from alsace some of them use old clusters also now and they're fresh they're lively they're juicy they're delicious one should discover them are there stylistic groupings or regional groupings of pinot noir in alsace like for example are there different terroir kind of groupings of

[01:23:22] different pinot noir no what you can see i would say is the some stylistic trends you have a group of producers who are very much influenced by burgundy they're trying to recreate the style or getting access to some barrels that they purchase from great producers from

[01:23:44] burgundy in order to not to imitate but to find the inspiration sometimes it works perfectly but you also have producers trying to respect a more traditional approach and sometimes it can be super interesting i would say jean-michel d'ace for instance is super well known for his

[01:24:07] complotation his wine made from a blend of different grapes on different terroir but his red wines i think are very good but they're always a bit more closed a bit more austere then they need time

[01:24:22] whereas most pinot noir from alsace today you can open the bottle and drink it they're delicious they will age but they're super good young and when you pay 15 20 euro for a bottle

[01:24:34] it's not necessarily something you want to keep in your cellar it's also wines that you can drink not on an everyday basis but quite often so i also see producers trying to rejuvenate the traditional style of alsace wines with long aging sometimes you know 15 18 20 months

[01:24:56] aging casks sometimes wines yes a bit more still less less fruity less exuberant than the burgundy style and you also have quite a few producers in a very natural style making wines

[01:25:12] that can be great but can also be not so good it's a hit or miss it really depends because when you do absolutely no sulfides and it depends how it's performed and kept but people like fricke makes

[01:25:28] absolutely wonderful pinot noir in alsace i love the wines also from laurent bart ebinger among the new generation of producers so there's there's a new trend also of pinot noir made in a completely non-interventionist and almost no sulfide style that can be absolutely gorgeous yes

[01:25:54] in your opinion if i understand correctly you think alsace is a real region to look at within france if you want to spend 20 euros or less absolutely on on white of course but the new revelation is is red because the last three vintages 18 19 and 2020 everyone would agree

[01:26:16] they have never made better red wines never besides global warming and some new consciousness amongst a different generation and some good farming are there other particular keys to that whether it be vine material or planting in the right place or type of pruning or is there something

[01:26:33] that changed in a region that has allowed them to achieve i don't think so much has changed in the region in terms of the way of working it's more the way alsatian people look at the pinot noir

[01:26:47] for many years pinot noir it's always been there it used to be vinified in as a kind of rosé you know they used to do a very light style of red wine that was meant to be drunk during summer and

[01:27:01] and usually not grown on the best again because some white grapes were much more popular in the in those days it takes a new generation younger guys who are today in their 20s or 30s sometimes

[01:27:15] 40s who have traveled a lot who have witnessed traveling in asia in america anywhere in the world the power of the pinot noir the demand the interest for pinot noir wines and they figure

[01:27:32] okay but us we can do it too we have pinot noir and we have pinot noir it's been there for centuries we should find a way to reinterpret to to make it more popular and uh and to make

[01:27:45] much better wines and i think that's why today alsace is performing super well not not only because of global warming and better grub qualities but also because a lot of these young producers have opened their eyes and and realized that they they're there everything it took to to

[01:28:03] make it themselves as a financial model one of the things you did that was quite smart i think was you write and review french wines for mostly a french audience but then you also import italian

[01:28:18] wines into france that you don't write or review you separate the two businesses so you're an importer who brings in italian wines to france and then you're a reviewer of french wines in france

[01:28:31] and i i forbid myself to write on foreign wines and i forbid myself to sell french wines through restaurants and wine stores so i have organized my schizophrenic in a way you know i i have two

[01:28:44] two different jobs but i find it's quite complementary in a way because when you get to know french wines really well when i'm looking for something new in italy i will go for what i

[01:28:58] feel is super authentic and as a true italian character i want as a buyer as an importer i want to feel that what the wine producers whatever story they have

[01:29:16] is related to what i see in the vineyard in the cellar and to what i test then it makes sense if something goes wrong i'm not convinced and i also want to be able to sell wines

[01:29:31] that i would drink myself honesty is important you know you have to be convinced you're somewhat of a small company i mean it's basically super small well you right we're two

[01:29:41] no no way too i have a i have an italian guy working with me he was a great great guy because selling to some italian people in france italian people who have you know an italian restaurant if i'm not italian i'm not trustworthy even though i speak italian

[01:29:59] but you bring in wines to france from italy from most of the regions of italy almost every region yes we're trying because because they're all so different and in in each region you can find the

[01:30:14] wonderful people you get along with and you love their wines and the prices are right and the market is responding and your clients love it and and yeah so i started like now it's like 17 18 years

[01:30:28] and i still work with some of the producers i i started with and it's it's it's really rewarding to know that you you have made choices that you still believe in you know wines you still believe

[01:30:40] in and i've also witnessed a growing demand in france for foreign wines and especially italian wines and so today my most of my customers are not italian restaurants they are good restaurants

[01:30:54] sometimes michelin star restaurant two three star restaurants and also a lot of wine shops a lot of wine bars who are looking for new tests new styles new new expressions of wines jean-emmanuel simoes sees marvelous opportunities to explore the diversity of european wines as both a writer

[01:31:14] and a wine importer in france thank you very much for being here today thank you jean-emmanuel simon of la revue de vienne de france and anotropy all drink to that is hosted and produced by myself levy dalton editing and sound design by alessandro

[01:31:29] santoro aaron skella has contributed original pieces editorial assistance has been provided by bill kimsey the show music was performed and composed by rob moose and thomas bartlett show artwork by alicia tannoyan t-shirts sweatshirts coffee mugs and so much more including

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[01:32:14] subscribe or to follow this show and your favorite podcast app please that's super important to see every episode and thank you for listening as i was driving with my parents as a child going to

[01:32:44] to cheminix sometimes we used to stop in jor because that was on the way we went to cross switzerland to go to cheminix the highway that has been built later didn't exist so it was easier

[01:32:56] to go through arbor to make a stop in arbor for lunch or and then keep driving and once or twice my father stopped uh say okay let's buy some wine just out of curiosity again and we stopped at jack

[01:33:10] piffenay so i was pretty lucky also and i think that's one of the first good wine i remember drinking also with my parents was a bottle of arbor trousseau and and pulsar mostly my father

[01:33:23] liked the reds um so that was interesting because jor was already had a very distinctive taste it was unlike any other reds the pulsar and trousseau are different they do not taste like

[01:33:39] anything else in france so so for me it was i had this curiosity and then i started also looking at vineyards in switzerland from valais because when you're in cheminix you just climb uh top of the

[01:33:54] mountain and just on the other side you have switzerland so it's pretty easy to go and if you cross the tunnel du mont blanc you're in italy so it was pretty easy to visit vineyards around

[01:34:06] this area and i started tasting wines from switzerland wines from italy and very quickly it was pretty clear to me that this this was europe you know when you're in the alps you're in the in

[01:34:22] the center of europe you have other countries around and for me there is no french wine and the rest there is european wines and the rest that make more sense to me that is more logical because

[01:34:36] i feel a strong cultural historical background in vineyards from piemonte from switzerland from burgundy it's the same it's the same story it's the same the same way of seeing agriculture and growing grapes and trying to to to make good wines