497: Robert Drouhin Is From A Good Vintage

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[00:01:00] I'm Levy Dalton and this is all drink to that where we get behind the scenes of the wine business.

[00:01:06] Robert Duran of Mason Joseph Duran on the show today, hello sir how are you?

[00:01:27] I'm fine thank you.

[00:01:28] Happy to hear and have a talk with you.

[00:01:31] You were born in 1933 in Paris.

[00:01:33] Yes, a good vintage by the way.

[00:01:36] You would know that because later you ended up drinking a lot of older vintages with your

[00:01:41] adopted father Maurice Duran.

[00:01:44] Yes my life is rather interesting, my parents when I was born in Paris they both were physicians

[00:01:52] specializing on tuberculosis and unfortunately they passed on when I was very young five

[00:01:59] years old.

[00:02:00] And I came to born and was adopted by my uncle Maurice Duran so I practically spent all

[00:02:08] my life in Burgundy in Bourne under his guidance.

[00:02:12] Walking I remember walking with him through the vineyards he explaining the differences

[00:02:17] between all these areas, what one should do what one should not do tasting with him

[00:02:26] in the cellars also these are wonderful memories so I had a happy family life.

[00:02:34] Your mother had been the daughter of Joseph Duran and her brother was Maurice.

[00:02:38] Exactly Joseph Duran was my grandfather, had two children Maurice my uncle and Thres

[00:02:45] who was my mother.

[00:02:47] You moved with your two siblings to bone and Maurice adopted the three of you?

[00:02:53] Yes we moved to bone in 1940 so we spent the war here and after the war 1945 I was 12 years

[00:03:04] old then I started really tasting wine and I began walking in the vineyards with my father.

[00:03:13] Maurice had purchased the clodomouche and also he had a parcel of cloveaujo at that time

[00:03:17] but most of the property was in and around bone.

[00:03:20] Yes for obvious technical reasons the land was cultivated with horses and with horse you

[00:03:26] can out go to more than two or three miles away so he developed his estate in Bourne starting

[00:03:34] with a clodomouche but also Bourne Grave, Bourne Champi, Bourne et Not.

[00:03:38] And others and one day I believe it's in 1928 he purchased a piece of land in cloveaujo

[00:03:46] as he told me later he said that's for prestige because it doesn't bring money it's too far away to cultivate

[00:03:54] things have changed.

[00:03:56] He was also the sales representative on the export markets for Domain de la Romney County

[00:04:01] from the 20s and even through into the 60s.

[00:04:05] Well he had inherited the business from Joseph Rua who has was the case in those days

[00:04:13] who were selling a burgundy code de horn southern wines various wines even bandira wines.

[00:04:20] However when my father stepped in he quickly decided to concentrate on Burgne and obviously

[00:04:29] he meant his goal was to have the best and the most prestigious vineyards in Burgne.

[00:04:36] He distributed Ravane County wines at one point he had the general marimange wines.

[00:04:44] He was an interesting man, had intelligent, had many friends and his reputation for quality

[00:04:52] was so obvious that's probably one of the reasons why the Ravane County, Monsieur Champbon

[00:04:59] as you de Villain both agreed to give him the exclusive distribution of his wines for Burgundy and Belgium.

[00:05:08] They actually at one point offered him a half partnership in the domain but it was during a period

[00:05:14] of time when there were some difficulties yes that is a sad story in many ways my father who

[00:05:23] had been a great friend to the American soldiers during World War I in fact he was a liaison

[00:05:29] officer to General MacArthur so a high position and obviously although he spoke German he

[00:05:39] could obviously not wish that the Germany would win the war and that Germans could guess

[00:05:46] that so in 1940 1941 they came to arrest him in the fall and he spent seven months in prison.

[00:05:56] Fortunately he was liberated so early 1942, Monsieur Champbon decided to sell his shares

[00:06:07] and obviously turned to Maurice Dwarf or other to his wife. She went to the prison told him about it now

[00:06:17] what could he do being in prison what would happen the next day so I said I'm sorry I cannot borrow

[00:06:25] the money I cannot take the risk for my family so he let it go and it was later on purchased by

[00:06:35] Lois. He was also a director at the Hospice de Bonne. He was a member of the commission who

[00:06:44] directed the Hospice de Bonne and later on came Vice President in fact doing all the job as

[00:06:50] the president by law is the mayor Lord Mayor of Bonne but doesn't lay generally has not the time

[00:06:59] to look after the Hospice de Bonne so the Vice President is really the the sole and the guiding

[00:07:06] factor of the Hospice de Bonne. He was passionate with the Hospice de Bonne spent a lot of time

[00:07:12] he tried and and bring his skill to the estate. He sold you may know that the Hospice de Bonne had

[00:07:21] a large estate given over the years some very good areas some poor areas my father decided to try

[00:07:30] and eliminate the lesser areas and had the Hospice purchased replaced by only first-growth.

[00:07:40] It was an interesting time to be buying vineyard parcels because it was the post-folluxera

[00:07:45] he started in 1919 with the company and so vineyard land was often unplanted.

[00:07:52] Yes that was that was fortunate it was cheap but it was not an obvious decision because again

[00:08:02] it was it had to be cultivated with the horses all everything was done by hand so it cost a fortune

[00:08:10] and the production was in those days very low much lower than it is nowadays and so the profitability

[00:08:19] was not obvious but to him it was important at one point he actually hid in the cellars of

[00:08:25] the Hospice de Bonne is that correct? Well in 1944 the Germans tried and imprisoned in him again

[00:08:35] he could guess that would happen in those days we were living above the cellars with a stair going

[00:08:43] down the cellars and when at six o'clock in the mornings the Germans knocked at the door

[00:08:49] he quickly dressed went down the cellars to the cellars and the Germans could guess who would do it

[00:08:58] and they had blocked guards around the block four different streets fortunately

[00:09:05] that did not know that the cellars had another escape on the fifth trait that was not far from the

[00:09:12] Hospice de Bonne so quickly he had made plans for it he went to the Hospice de Bonne

[00:09:18] and for three months lived in the Hospice de Bonne with all the kindness of the nuns

[00:09:26] in charge of the Hospice de Bonne. The part that might be hard to imagine about that if someone

[00:09:32] hasn't visited is that the drawn cellars are underneath the town of Bonne and quite extensive

[00:09:38] and there's multiple entrances and exits and what is the main tasting room of the drawn

[00:09:44] family in firm today used to be the parliament building for Bonne? Yes it's going through the

[00:09:51] vessel is going through the history of Burgundy it starts with a Roman we can still see part of the

[00:09:58] older Roman wall built in 380 then the cellars building onging to the dukes of Burgundy they had their

[00:10:07] parliament house there it has still owned by us and then the cells of the kings of France

[00:10:15] till the revolution the cellars of the monks so going through the cellars one moves from 380 to

[00:10:24] 1250 with the monks 1480 the dukes of Burgundy and so on to arrive of prison des so it is

[00:10:34] fascinating to see for us it's important because it also contributes to bail us in the in the past

[00:10:44] it helps maintain tradition it helps have examples of what was done in all these past centuries

[00:10:52] and so what were the war years like for you World War II those years what was that like for you

[00:10:57] personally as a child to get the food I remember going on a bicycle cycling through the farms

[00:11:04] around the city to try and beg for a few eggs but that was more like a play we also had rabbits

[00:11:13] hands and sure enough we didn't know about chocolate and oranges but we did not mind it was probably

[00:11:22] a difficult time for our parents but nothing very special for us except that we lived the way

[00:11:30] ancestors lived our plays were sort of not in the with computers in those days it was

[00:11:38] very simple simple players like trying and catch lizards or play with some small animal natural

[00:11:47] animals an interesting time you told me one day you were going to school in 1945 in the sky

[00:11:54] turned completely black yes it was so black I can remember this day and this was in 1945

[00:12:03] and following that there was hell through the court door and following frost in the spring this is why

[00:12:13] the product of 1945 was so small and why the Romani Conti 1945 is so prestigious in 1945

[00:12:25] that was the last year where the production of Romani Conti was made out of old vines which were not

[00:12:36] drafted as all the other vineyards were later on part of the reason you know that is because your

[00:12:43] dad was the sale agent for that domain and he would drink with you those wines at dinner

[00:12:49] yes certainly after 1945 what was 12 13 14 years of age obviously every day at lunch there was a wine

[00:13:00] we were authorized to separate later on to drink it and then always we have we had to learn to

[00:13:08] remark about the wine is it red or is it white is it gamma or is it pinot noir is it a wine of the

[00:13:15] code the bone or of the code denui is it good in which way is it good and later on my father would

[00:13:24] say can you try and guess yes it's a wine of the code denui is it on the first growth or

[00:13:29] grand cre level that sort gradually I was learning all the details and the approach in those days

[00:13:38] was less technical than it is nowadays less rational we would not speak about the acidity the pH or

[00:13:47] the alcoholic content but more important about the finesse the complexity of the wine and the aging

[00:13:55] capacity what is obvious to me even nowadays and what was Maurice like as a person had a lot of charm

[00:14:06] no it's difficult to describe her a father I certainly now even more than in those days admire him

[00:14:16] and if he was so well-known in Burgundy and in the United States it's due probably to his intelligence

[00:14:25] is the way he could forecast the events and on top of that very very kind first of all it was

[00:14:33] very kind of him to adopt all of a sudden three young children later on as he was very thankful

[00:14:42] to the Espice de Bonne for saving his life he gave a part of his estate to the Espice de Bonne

[00:14:49] that's why there is a privé Maurice de Warr every year which is on sale and which I try and buy

[00:14:56] when the price is not too high and unfortunately Maurice suffered a stroke and was partially paralyzed

[00:15:03] then you left your army service to come back and pick over Mason Duran at the age of 24 exactly although

[00:15:12] after the war after the baccalaurei went to university and tried and learned about law and then I

[00:15:20] went to Germany studied more about literature so that was far from the wine but all of a sudden

[00:15:29] I had to go in to be a soldier and I was I spent two and a half years in the army an interesting

[00:15:37] experience I was in Baroque during the war and even at one point was in charge of the radio

[00:15:47] communication of the legionnaire la légion étrangère so an interesting psychological experience

[00:15:56] during this period however as you just said my father had to stroke and when I was out of the army

[00:16:03] other than going to university to possibly learn about geology,

[00:16:10] vinification, analogy and so on I all of a sudden I was in charge of the company

[00:16:17] but say however that it was a fascinating challenging and I had good friends or other my father

[00:16:25] had good friends and they were very kind to me the su Michel who was in charge of the station

[00:16:33] analogy was a good friend and I constantly asked for his advice the man in charge of our cell is

[00:16:43] as usual was a coupé so he knew a lot about wood and had the experience in the company

[00:16:52] so he was very good to me and I already my first trip to the United States was in 1961

[00:17:03] another great experience from a technical point of view about California and commercial point

[00:17:11] of view to understand the approach and here again I always remembered what my father had said

[00:17:20] in those days 1950 Americans were beginning to really discovering well the Americans were

[00:17:28] discovering wine but they didn't know much and some of them still would blend Coca-Cola with wine

[00:17:37] some people in bergené said why you shape your best wines to the United States while my father

[00:17:45] said they may not know at the moment but gradually drinking good and good and better wines they will

[00:17:51] learn and this is exactly what happened again the interest for bergené wines developed in the states

[00:17:59] for many reasons possibly the quality of the wine the fact that it came from a historical area

[00:18:08] to me have had that it was not easy to understand and also analogy was beginning to develop in the states

[00:18:17] and all this contributed to the progress of the consumption for example you met both Robert

[00:18:25] Mandavi and John Daniel of England right yes again there is the good friends of my father and I

[00:18:32] have still have in my cellar some wines made by Mandavi and by Ingle-Nuk and on my first trip

[00:18:39] to the states I remember flying with John Daniel in his private small private plane over the hills

[00:18:48] it has changed a lot but Manaville was fascinating he who was passionate he was generous

[00:18:57] he was curious he constantly experimented and what's more he passed on his experience and the

[00:19:05] discoveries I may say he had so that was interesting also this was the beginning of inology

[00:19:13] in France the certification as an inologist started in 1955 so when I was in bergené 1957 really

[00:19:24] this was the beginning of the knowledge and in US in California in particular I would say in those days

[00:19:34] there were a head of the bergené at least in discovering the specificities of wine and being

[00:19:43] passionate myself not having studied I was so passionate that I read all the magazines the

[00:19:53] journal of inology of the david's university there's shows that the experience although I didn't

[00:19:59] learn at university I gained from the experience of my parents of my own experience over what is now

[00:20:08] 50 or 60 years and for example when you say it was really the beginning of analogy that's a right

[00:20:15] around the time they discovered what malalactic conversion was and wine as a process yes you are

[00:20:22] quite right malalactic in secondary fermentation in the old days one thought that well it's spring

[00:20:30] and everything is growing again so there is new growth in the wine but don't know about malalactic

[00:20:38] and it started then 1957 as I said this was the beginning of the research and the knowledge on malalactic

[00:20:47] and 1957 was a difficult vintage with a fairly high acidity content. Small story about it Michelle the

[00:20:55] director of the station on the rigig said it's fermentation without oxygen so don't crack off

[00:21:03] the wine but I remember however one of our wines didn't start the malalactic fermentation our

[00:21:09] chef de cav said if you allow me whatever Mr. Michelle said I will crack it off with a little air

[00:21:17] and suddenly the fermentation started so it's another lesson then as long as the one does not know

[00:21:25] everything on a subject one has to be very careful before applying new holds and another

[00:21:32] innovation that came in at that time was the tractor that's where I'm fortunate when you think of it

[00:21:39] after the war yes we had we were cultivating with horses we only used manure and sulphur copper

[00:21:50] in the vineyards everything was done by hand and all of a sudden I heard about tractors

[00:21:59] bushach purifis large house in burgundy had one tractor and I was second to remember experimenting

[00:22:06] with the tractor something very small and light easy to conduct like a car now it is it would be

[00:22:16] different it takes half a day with all the technology of these engines to know how to plow how to

[00:22:23] spray and so on so yes 1957 1960 it's the time when burgundy really switched from I would say

[00:22:34] middle age to the modern approach we saw agricultural engineers we saw

[00:22:42] analogists so many things changed in the vineyards for instance learning of these new rules I

[00:22:53] try and plow more often I spread with the new chemical molecules I used fertilizers instead of

[00:23:07] manure and certainly immediately the vineyards were in better shape larger leaves have your bunches

[00:23:17] dark green leaves so everything looked technically perfect adding to that the few changes in

[00:23:25] vinification we had sounder wines very fruity and maybe a little lighter and took me a few years

[00:23:37] to realize that the ones yes they were fruity they were pleasant they were good but we're lacking

[00:23:43] character lacking concentration and probably would age too quickly so I thought about it and we

[00:23:52] stopped using fertilizers we tried and lessen the quantities of molecules chemical products

[00:24:03] and the result really appeared on top of that I should add when we think of

[00:24:08] viticulture in France and in burgundy philoxa arrived in France in 1856 and also diseases such as

[00:24:19] oidium powder remilio so philoxa arrived in burgundy around 1885 80 90 fairly soon one knew that by

[00:24:33] grafting on american hoodstock one would prevent philoxa ra to kill the vines and in a fairly short time

[00:24:44] the whole of burgundy was repainted with a few exception such as the romanic aunty when you

[00:24:52] think of it when the lifetime of a vine is 40 45 years if it was repainted in 1945 years later that

[00:25:03] was after the war so most vines were very old in those days but to repart it takes time

[00:25:10] it's costly and the economy was not that good just after the war so it's really only around 1960

[00:25:21] that a lot of repranteation happened in burgundy including in our states and again it was

[00:25:27] very happy with the younger vines to have apparently healthier vines more more vigorous so we

[00:25:37] applauded it means that the vines produced in the after the war were generally made from very old

[00:25:46] vines and after 1960 70 let's say very often of very young vines that difference immediately was the

[00:25:57] obvious the production the yield per acre increased considerably but it's a fact that the

[00:26:04] vines were then lighter lacked structure lacked possibly some personality and would probably age more

[00:26:15] quickly some journalists thought that the mentality had changed in burgundy we were looking for

[00:26:23] just for quantity and less for quality and we were looking for the profit that was not the case it

[00:26:29] was a natural fact and naturally gradually all these vines aged let's say around 1980 1990 again quite normal

[00:26:43] and the wine was very good again with concentration it was a matter of the vine age not being that old

[00:26:51] and at the time throughout the region that a lot of the vines were young and as they got older the

[00:26:57] vines then came out of that phase exactly an old vine brings more tan in more structure more

[00:27:06] concentration so nowadays one has to be careful to maintain a lower yield to have concentration it's

[00:27:16] one of the secret of the good produces low production and something else that was an outcome of

[00:27:25] having tractors is that you could cultivate vineyards that were more far-flying so you yourself started

[00:27:32] a sort of a buying spree in the 60s and you purchased on more musini laemmarous gruyotte eshazou grand

[00:27:40] eshazou petarmorsche yes I'm very proud and very happy of it it was obviously fascinating to

[00:27:48] develop an estate it has become possible to cultivate 20 kilometers even 30 miles away so I started

[00:27:59] developing the estate in the court door in as you mentioned musini amorous bon marclod vujo grand

[00:28:09] eshazou chamberta triat chamberta was fortunate to be able to do it also in fact starting around 1968

[00:28:23] I thought of developing an estate in shabley shabley was the name of shabley was known the world

[00:28:30] around it meant a good dry wine made with chardonnay and strangely enough the cultivatite area was

[00:28:41] very small only 400 hectares 1000 acres shabley had had a large production in previous centuries

[00:28:54] the wines were drank in Paris but after the philoxera as it is a risky area because of all the

[00:29:03] frost very little was reprunted and competition came from wines produced in the court door or in

[00:29:11] southern France so many many vineyards had been abetained but I thought there is a future in that

[00:29:19] and fairly quickly it was again possible I developed an estate which is now 120 acres with carcou,

[00:29:31] le clou, vodizia and so on maybe we could talk about some of those signature parcels that you

[00:29:38] purchased during that period of time and maybe some from before so Maurice had purchased the clodamous

[00:29:45] which is in bone and originally when he purchased it he was making a red wine but it was co-planted

[00:29:51] with white grape varieties which was normal at the time yes in the days in a Pinot noir you had

[00:29:58] Pinot noir, Pinot blanc, chardonnay, Pinot gris which we call beurreau in the same same vineyard

[00:30:07] possibly this multiplicity of the vines contributed to the complexity of the wine.

[00:30:16] Anyway after all these new diseases normally one should spray protect the vines differently

[00:30:28] the chardonnay in particular is very sensible to oidium the powdery milieu and we fight against it

[00:30:37] with sulphur which is spread however it's not necessary to do it on Pinot noir or not at the same time

[00:30:46] so my father had a good idea he thought I'll have a the small separate vineyard in the clodamous

[00:30:54] just with chardonnay I will note is chardonnay we can spray at the right time and at the time of

[00:31:01] the harvest we will harvest the Pinot noir and the chardonnay combine them small proportion of

[00:31:07] chardonnay of course in the fermenter and that's the trick which he did possibly four two or three

[00:31:14] years then one year the chardonnay was not ripe at the time of the Pinot noir so he couldn't pick

[00:31:24] at the same time so what could he do he made the two vines separately and when he tasted the chardonnay

[00:31:33] the clodamous blonde the first one he had ever produced then he was amazed with the quality

[00:31:39] he told me that a few months later Monsieur Vaudable who was the owner of Chesteron Maxim came

[00:31:47] through the cellars to buy here the wines he wanted he tasted the clodamous white and said oh that

[00:31:54] super I must have it exclusive or maximum which he had so from there on the the clodamous was sold

[00:32:05] at Maxim and the repute of clodamous white develop in those days it was exclusive if it was

[00:32:13] the only white bone what would you summarize as the character of clodamous white and red if you

[00:32:19] were to talk about them as wines clodamous white is located halfway or nearly halfway between

[00:32:28] Corteun Chalemagne and Mojache and in some ways it has the quality of these two prestigious

[00:32:36] clodamous white and red it has the richness of the coteur Chalemagne it has some of the acidity

[00:32:48] hism not character of the Mojache it ages well it's difficult to describe why is this wine good

[00:32:58] it's difficult of anyone it's easy to say of a white shardonnay it has hism not chestnut

[00:33:08] character so I don't know how to describe it but I could say it's good and you know I remember

[00:33:15] all these famous chester hatter chesteron people came to see my father in those days they wouldn't

[00:33:25] talk about the pH and so on and the best compliment would say that's good sassad with that is wine

[00:33:32] to describe how could I describe shambhalmousinium oils this is possibly the one I prefer in the cotto

[00:33:39] not because of its of my estate because I think it's that the premium elegance complexity

[00:33:46] it's not dominated by the structure one may find in musini and which others may prefer

[00:33:54] but complexity means that it is difficult to describe complexity means that it is in the nose

[00:34:04] in the smell and in the aftertaste this could lead to a question what is a great wine in which

[00:34:13] where is it better than another first of all when on the thing of a wine the quality is of

[00:34:21] negative nature a good wine is a one which is not too acid not too alcoholic not too tannic

[00:34:30] and so on and so on but then the real quality come from other factors which are difficult to describe

[00:34:39] and then it also depends on the taste there are definitely wines which are more on the light side

[00:34:47] and others more on the full-bodied structure nature I tend to privilege the wines which are on

[00:34:55] the light side and to me the most important part is the smell the smell and aftertaste the smell

[00:35:04] then obviously in the young wines that you have the fruitiness but I prefer the old vines because

[00:35:11] it's more complex of dried fruit of decaying leaves of earth of tobacco of exotic wood difficult to

[00:35:23] describe my children are they are often better or have more imagination than I have to describe

[00:35:30] the wines but complexity and then in the aftertaste that's when it is important it complexity the length

[00:35:41] not long ago one of my friend who a good expert in truffles came home and asked if I would be

[00:35:50] interested to have tasting of truffles obviously I said yes so he came and he had different

[00:35:58] truffles from the same area and yet they were different on the smell and he explained to me he

[00:36:05] would cut a small thin slice he said put it on your palate stick it if I may say with a tongue on

[00:36:11] your palate and just apply to the truffle the same holes you apply to wine the retro affection

[00:36:21] to deliver the smell through the nose and see how long it stays on your palate so that is

[00:36:32] to me against the question of taste the complexity of the wines of the center part of the code de

[00:36:42] nuit from Vaughn Armanay to maybe to Claude LaRochie to my taste this is where the most complex wines are

[00:36:50] to be found when we come back Robert Draughan explains the wise behind the Draughan wine making

[00:36:57] in Burgundy and elsewhere the mistake to make and some people do in new wine districts it's to try

[00:37:07] and imitate copy what is being done in Bordeaux or in Burgundy and other than have this approach

[00:37:15] the question should be why do they do it in Burgundy how do they do it and why that's after

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[00:39:02] information not only did your father do the first white bone but he also in terms of white wine

[00:39:10] had a very important agreement with the Makita Ligiche that's basically began in the 1940s.

[00:39:17] He became a good friend with the lagish family purchased already some of their wines during the war

[00:39:26] and starting with 1946 had an agreement with them to purchase their wines every year so he purchased

[00:39:35] the wines then a few years later at least when I arrived I thought that how to buying the wine

[00:39:43] already pressed it would be better to have the grapes delivered to us so we started picking

[00:39:52] the vineyard and making the wine and there was a great friendness between the Lagish family

[00:40:01] and the family there were very confident in us the Makita Ligiche and I would go through the vineyards

[00:40:13] we would decide together of the cultivation of the harvest remember one day just before the harvest

[00:40:25] this was on a on a Friday and we were in the vineyards the grapes looked ripe could be picked

[00:40:34] but then I thought maybe a few days more the wine will be better however the sky was dark

[00:40:42] there was the risk of storm with hail so a higher risk so the Makita asked me when you think we

[00:40:51] should pick I said well I personally would grant the risk but financially it's a big risk so you

[00:41:00] have to make the decision and he said no I follow your decision so and we picked on the Monday or choose

[00:41:07] their following that Friday chose the confidence in the we were on the same track so it was easy

[00:41:15] I have never met one of the Makita Ligiche and I know very little about the family how did it come

[00:41:21] to be that they held that holding in Mauritier that's such a substantial holding the Lagish family

[00:41:28] is an old noble family of France well they owned the Mauritier Lagish since 1393 when you think of it

[00:41:39] more sex 600 years is in the hands of the same family they do not live in Burgundy they have a

[00:41:46] shadow which is not that far away they are predition so it's an interesting family to work with

[00:41:54] and they used to own the old Mohashi and over the years they themselves through heritage

[00:42:04] that was divided and part of it was at the French Revolution they emigrated to save their life

[00:42:14] a one of their ancestors did not emigrate and was beheaded the property was sold as a national property

[00:42:25] and the man in charge of the sellers at the auction could purchase five acres back

[00:42:32] and when the Lagish family came they said I'm sorry I could not buy it all but of course

[00:42:40] it's not mine it is yours when you think of such a gesture one can admire but these are

[00:42:47] good lessons of integrity and this is when honesty integrity is something very important the

[00:42:56] ethic is important in a family that's why I very much believe in family businesses

[00:43:03] I have four children and I'm very happy that it's I'm fortunate all of them four of them are all

[00:43:10] of them are in the committee Philip who has conducted financial studies one day said I'm not

[00:43:18] interested in more in finance I want to look after the vineyards Veronica my daughter is an

[00:43:25] e-nologist law is very outgoing I don't know how express that so he's our ambassador in the United

[00:43:36] States and the last one Frederic the youngest one is the head of the company and I tried and

[00:43:46] passed on also now to my grandchildren to pass on the business which is important it's important

[00:43:55] for not only for us it's important for Burgundy that there are families it's true of Burgundy and

[00:44:01] other wine districts families are maintained the tradition and the passion it doesn't mean that

[00:44:10] culminated now it is many shadows in Bordeaux or estates in Burgundy which are purchased by

[00:44:19] large financial companies well in some ways I deploy that they will look for the best they

[00:44:25] will really try and hire the best agricultural engineer or the best inologist they do

[00:44:34] and the wines are good but something is missing in the transmission of small details on the vineyards

[00:44:44] on the story on the tipicity it's the way of life so earlier you mentioned that Lamariché

[00:44:53] can be noted for its freshness and I think sometimes consumers think of it as a powerful white wine

[00:44:58] but when I've spoken with producers of Lamariché they say it's a vineyard that can hold on to

[00:45:03] its acidity and often thus needs to be picked later what's your experience of that parcel

[00:45:09] it's a continuous search should we pick it early and have enough acidity freshness fruitiness

[00:45:19] but maybe for use a simple wine should we harvest later have a wine of a high alcoholic content

[00:45:31] less acidity rounder it's possibly a question of taste and it's always a difficult question

[00:45:39] with every every vintage at the answer is and it is not an explanation the answer is that it should be

[00:45:47] balanced it should have enough alcohol it should have structure it should have tanning it should have

[00:45:54] acidity which helps the wine keep more hasé should be it is obviously enjoyable when it

[00:46:04] is two or three years but it's a pity to drink it then when it is normally six eight years old

[00:46:12] to some people's taste it is it is a there best that we had a 1989 so the wine was when I

[00:46:24] had it it was thirty years old and the wine was absolutely excellent on the other hand

[00:46:33] I had another one a younger vintage of a lesser vintage and the wine was oxidized and then it is

[00:46:39] a disaster and so worrying we would like our wines to be always perfect and they are not always

[00:46:46] perfect but when more hasé is at its best it's really that has always been said it's the best wine

[00:46:55] of France with the Ikeme in another category one of the key purchases that you made

[00:47:02] in the sixties was that you purchased as you mentioned you're one of your really favorite

[00:47:06] cruisers la Amaroose and Shambon Musini a parcel of Bon Mar and a parcel of Musini and how did

[00:47:12] that purchase come about my father was buying when he comes to Musini Bon Mar I'm always my father

[00:47:21] buying wine from an old lady who had inherited from this area I wouldn't say we became friend but

[00:47:29] she had no children so one day I would suggested that I would to buy it from her and she was happy

[00:47:37] to sell it to us and I loved the wines which were produced there were old wines which contributed

[00:47:45] to the quality and the Musini 61 62 we produced are still just fantastic on the best we produced

[00:47:54] we have replanted with the advantage that we have the multiplicity of clones which were not

[00:48:01] available years ago so the wines has retained I believe the complexity it should have

[00:48:09] why all the wines of Shambon Musini are rather on the light side they have a pleasant

[00:48:19] there are more feminine than masculine and may not be from a political point of view

[00:48:26] good to use the word feminine and masculine but in fact it contributes to complement

[00:48:33] it shows the specificity of each feminine wine is a wine which is elegant which is complex

[00:48:41] which is more difficult to describe while the masculine wine has more texture more tanning

[00:48:48] more color and more focused different approach I love the wines of Shambon Musini but I have

[00:48:56] vineyard and very proud of also if I were to understand better Musini to Bon Mar you have parcels

[00:49:03] in both they were originally part of the same holding how would you compare them as wines

[00:49:09] personally I think the Amo here is the most elegant of the three Bon Mar is the one which has the

[00:49:20] structure and takes some age to develop its complexity and Musini I would say is half way between

[00:49:31] Bon Mar and Amo is it has some of the structure of the Bon Mar and the some of the elegance

[00:49:42] of the Shambon Musini Amo is it can also be different from one producer to another

[00:49:51] for instance Domaine de Voguewe is the largest producer of Musini a well-positioned vineyards

[00:49:59] well cultivated are their wines generally have little more structure than the wines we produce

[00:50:06] are they better they probably think it there they are it's their approach and mine is a bit different

[00:50:13] but that's also what makes it present in Burgundy multiplicity of the wine and multiplicity

[00:50:20] of approaches so that at least we can discuss about it one of my personal favorite

[00:50:26] vitelings from Dron over a number of years has the Gryot Shambartin and that's a parcel that you

[00:50:32] purchase an interesting purchase I'm very very happy I have it it was don't know exactly why but

[00:50:39] it was sold at the public auction and the this vineyard is located below the Shambartin

[00:50:46] clued the bays and next to Chappelle Shambartin I like it particularly in some ways I prefer Gryot

[00:50:55] Shambartin to Shambartin I suppose it's the same approach I mentioned on Musini and Shambal

[00:51:02] Musini Amoes Shambartin has more structure more body it fills the mouth Gryot Shambartin is

[00:51:10] lighter and has from the beginning to the end a very linear approach in the finesse it keeps

[00:51:21] as well maybe maybe age is a little quicker than Shambartin never thought about it before

[00:51:29] but it could be because it has a little less structure in conversations in the past you've

[00:51:35] told me how much you like vone which makes sense because you grew up drinking the wines of

[00:51:39] the domain del Romney Cantien you developed a fondness for latash in particular and these days

[00:51:46] drawn makes a really superb a teetement from Vom Romney pretty man yes well but he

[00:51:53] man belongs to my daughter in fact when I purchased the vineyard I purchased it for Verneak

[00:52:01] Verneak is passionate with wine the way the way I am but he man is located just above the

[00:52:09] ridgebure of the domain del Romney Cantien and Verneak thinks that the quality of the ridgebure

[00:52:16] comes from the earth of the pretty man which over the centuries gradually went down the slope

[00:52:24] pretty man is a typical vone Romney wine it has enough body it has complexity always use the word

[00:52:35] complexity because frankly I don't know how to describe although a general a can recognize a wine

[00:52:42] of the Vom Romney area versus a wine of the Shambal Misini or a wine of Jevres Shambartin so they are

[00:52:51] different the wines from latash to the Causage Saison or the upper part of the Claude Vujot have an

[00:53:03] extraordinary character Vom Romney Petit-Mont is not a Grand Cru it is a first growth but

[00:53:15] some ways worth the quality of the Grand Cru. Now that we've covered some of the parcels maybe we

[00:53:21] could go over some of the history of the wine making and so you mentioned earlier that the chef de

[00:53:26] Causage originally when he began was a gentleman who was also a Cooper and that was in keeping

[00:53:31] with the time and he was an older gentleman who explained to you a lot of things and then as

[00:53:37] the onological revolution happened and there became more trials and schools and bulletins and notices

[00:53:47] available. You made a key decision which was to hire Lawrence Jobar as your analogist. The Lawrence

[00:53:55] Jobar was the first woman in Burgundy to be in charge of a large estate. I would suppose I selected her

[00:54:05] because of her pallet because she was looking for fitness, she was looking for the softest very often

[00:54:13] I think women have a better pallet than men that you normally do not smoke maybe however they

[00:54:22] overreact to ten in. That's why they try and produce wines which are soft which have maybe less

[00:54:31] structure which are always elegant so it was fascinating if I was very busy traveling the world around

[00:54:41] yet whenever I'm born every day I would go to the winery around 10 o'clock in the morning

[00:54:50] and taste with Lawrence and gradually obviously our tastes combined we had exactly the same approach.

[00:55:01] Now I do it less, Verneak does it with Jerome who is in charge of our vineyards and I make sure that

[00:55:11] they also go well together and taste in the same direction so it's important to for Verneak

[00:55:21] to maintain the style of the wine you should think that the wine should not have a style but

[00:55:29] obviously it has the style of the producer and I hope our wines are elegant, the complex

[00:55:38] typical of Verneak and the typical of the vintage. This brings me the subject of

[00:55:46] the analogy most produces the world around now go to university and all of them the world around

[00:55:56] learn the same lesson they know how to correct the wine and how in some ways to change the wine

[00:56:06] you can play on sugar acid tanning the finding yeast temperature and so on and so on and obviously

[00:56:16] an analogist tries and produce wine which has no defect so gradually all the analogists have

[00:56:25] certain profile ideal profile of wine depending on the area naturally it is different but here in

[00:56:33] Verneak they probably think the wine which is 13.2 in alcohol a pH of 325 and so on we can measure

[00:56:47] so many parameters in wine that the risk now is that aiming at the best the analogist in charge

[00:56:57] of the wine would try and compensate what nature has not provided. The good thing is that there are

[00:57:06] less poor vintage but the risk is also that all vintage tastes alike in the past the pleasure

[00:57:16] blind tasting was to try and find out where does it come from is it a basic wine first

[00:57:25] growth, cork who and quit vintage now it becomes more and more difficult all wines when they are young

[00:57:34] are fruity and the difference in the wines is more in the one is fresh yet the other is not

[00:57:41] and so on by correcting the wine I mean one lessen the differences which is not the ideal for me

[00:57:52] doesn't mean that I am critical of a analogy but at the same time I insist in our company

[00:58:01] that we do not try and correct too much a wine we should maintain the tipicity.

[00:58:09] One thing that you mentioned in there that I think is really key from an outsider's perspective as

[00:58:14] appreciating the Züron wines is the refinement on tannins and not having harsh tannins because if

[00:58:20] you compare to other wines of the 80s some of them were going for a bigger darker mortanic style

[00:58:27] and Dron was not. That was the time when Parker the journalist had a strong influence

[00:58:38] on all wines in the world he had a good palette but he also has his personal taste

[00:58:44] he was very honest a sincere but he was impressed by the freshness structure tannin

[00:58:53] of the wine of a wine which filled the mouth to him was excellent again it's not our artist

[00:59:01] it could be true in Bordeaux the wines have more more tannin than in Birgindy in Birgindy

[00:59:10] normal wine is rather on the light side so the balance in vinification is in the time of

[00:59:20] the temperature of fermentation and the length of the fermentation is one way to extract

[00:59:30] more of the wine when may disagree on this not in favor of extracting too much but one also has to

[00:59:43] consider the commercial aspect the approach of the consumer I would not produce a musini the same way

[00:59:52] I would with a chorille de bonne chorille de bonne is a small village next to bonne on the valley floor

[01:00:01] it can produce pleasant fruity wine so when we produce chardonnay we look for this fruitiness

[01:00:10] we bottle the wine fairly young so that it is charming when we think of musini we don't think of

[01:00:18] the charm we want the musini to be musini which means a long-lasting wine a wine which has

[01:00:24] enough structure to last and a wine which is complex so generally it takes longer we keep it

[01:00:31] longer in the fermenter we with longer in the wood we could also have a little more new oak

[01:00:41] in musini than in a chorille because in a chorille the wood would dominate the wine and we don't want

[01:00:50] that in musini it will never dominate the natural structure of the wine and anyway after 10 years

[01:00:59] it would have faded away so again nuances between villages not only between nuances between

[01:01:08] in the producers I'm sure you have known producers who would love using a lot of new oak

[01:01:17] I'm not too much we have to consider the commercial approach so at one time maybe we started using

[01:01:26] little more new oak learning the past say 20 years ago and now we are reverting we are going down

[01:01:37] the other way with no new oak for many of our wines and new oak for the red wines in particular

[01:01:46] and great vintage in particular. If you could kind of trace me the curve of drew on wine making so from

[01:01:55] the mid to late 60s you started looking at maybe using steel doing a maybe a two day cold soak

[01:02:03] and then maybe you could tell me more and then how it's changed from then to now and what you do

[01:02:08] because now for instance you do open top permits. I think possibly the main change in

[01:02:16] vinification and the world around is temperature control. We have stainless steel fermenters with hot

[01:02:25] or cold water printing around it it's good but again one has it's the way it is used which is important

[01:02:35] when we produce a shabby we know the consumer loves the tipicity the mineral character of the shabby

[01:02:44] and the acidity the citrus character now one can enhance this character with special yeast or

[01:02:55] with cold fermentation so we have to be careful to remain true to the type of shabby and at the same

[01:03:02] time if we can slightly enhance the true character it is better so maybe in shabby we have changed

[01:03:11] 50 years ago it has sterile steel and we didn't know about the influence of the temperature.

[01:03:18] When it comes to the red wines what did we change? In the 60s 70s I would say I was looking for

[01:03:27] purity stability of the wine thinking the wines were shaped the world around that was very careful

[01:03:35] with sediment so with the guidance from some German in theologist we tried and filter the wines

[01:03:43] to eliminate all yeast and bacteria and the wines were stable there were brilliant but some critics

[01:03:51] said that the wines were then a little thin I don't like critic but I pay attention to what is said

[01:03:59] and I decided they were right so we abandoned this type of filtration when it comes to

[01:04:08] a hydro wine what has changed over the years? We always used new oak but in the past we would

[01:04:18] scald with steam or hot water and even a pinch of a handful of salt with hot water in each barrel

[01:04:28] we would rinse the barrel to have a new barrel but eliminate the new oak fragrance then came the

[01:04:37] fashion if I may say of new oak so we also followed this fashion less than many people because

[01:04:49] we know that what is on fashion one day will be out of fashion so certainly the percentage of new

[01:04:57] has changed over the years in our style the time of the botting may have changed over the years

[01:05:07] in the old days traditionally the reds would be kept two years in wood and the white one year

[01:05:16] then I loved the white wines in particular which were bottled early it had so much charm so much

[01:05:24] fruitiness they were delicious to drink so I started doing the same not only with a macon

[01:05:31] villager bourgain but also with a pylignin mojache or possibly a clodimouche means that not

[01:05:39] after one year but maybe only after nine months possibly seven months we would bottle the wine

[01:05:46] here again after a few years are realized the wines that tasted of chardonnay they were present

[01:05:53] but many wines in the world and pleasant and we wanted the wine to taste of clodimouche or pylignin mojache

[01:05:59] over so so we went backwards and now the mojache for instances generally bottled when it is

[01:06:10] 1415 months old with the reds but could have changed what they have changed is the

[01:06:19] the finding in the past all our wines were find our white wines are still

[01:06:27] find the reds are not always find see I take care less in the fact that they could be sediment

[01:06:36] in in the wine that is yes when I think of it that is really the big change it could be then in

[01:06:42] the future there will be sediment in our wines good sediment which is the combination of tanin

[01:06:50] and and color it falls at the bottom and it's not a it's not a problem just maybe decanting the wine

[01:06:58] will help separate the sediment all those sediment is very good speaking about verification you did

[01:07:05] an interesting experiment in 1980 in 1981 in that you had purchased in the 60s of very old

[01:07:11] hundreds of years old wine press and you made wine without press which is near the church of

[01:07:17] bone the cathedral bone in 80 and then again in 81 and then you did a comparison of the same grapes

[01:07:24] vinified in a contemporary way with the grapes that I've been made in the old way of hundreds and

[01:07:30] hundreds of years ago and I just wonder if you could kind of walk me through what you learned and

[01:07:35] observed during that process being fortunate to have this very old press in the 13th century building

[01:07:43] I thought will it will be fun and interesting to make wine the old way it means disstaming with

[01:07:51] their hands not with a machine having all the grapes in a fermenter not adding any yeast

[01:07:59] doing nothing to the to the wine and it took a few nearly a week for the fermentation to start

[01:08:08] chef de cav was launched of was a little worried I said no no we do nothing fermentation started

[01:08:15] every day naturally with small buckets we would bring wine from the bottom to to the top

[01:08:23] we would mix the cap with the with the feet the old way and then we would press on this very old press

[01:08:32] which was made in 1576 and then during this we thought we make quite a few mistakes too much

[01:08:41] irration and then the wine we bring it in the cellars the cellars are called what about

[01:08:48] malractic fermentation and what will be the result at the same time we made was cludimouge we made

[01:08:55] some cludimouge the way we think is is the best let's say the modern way it was interesting that

[01:09:03] after the fermentation when the wine was a few months old the wine made the modern way was red

[01:09:11] at more structure at the more fruitiness the other one was lighter in color lighter in body

[01:09:19] slightly yellowish but at morphine and one year later five years later 10 20 years later

[01:09:29] the wine made that way is definitely more elegant and more complex that the wine made a modern way

[01:09:37] this was 1980 a difficult vintage still interested with the result I thought we do the same in 1981

[01:09:46] and it was a complete disaster another bad vintage by the way 1981 so the wine well very low in color

[01:09:56] no structure acid and pleasant so one listen is already that certainly in the past there were many

[01:10:05] many bad wines made we could not accept nowadays since then we have made again wine like that 1985

[01:10:20] remember somewhat successful but we don't use this press I think we used it in 2000 the frankly

[01:10:31] the lesson again is that one has to be careful not to try and over act as much as possible one should

[01:10:42] let the wine ferment naturally and it is only when it starts deviating and we know it will

[01:10:50] we know thanks to a knowledge that it will not be good then we must act but yes looking at the past

[01:10:59] the combination of experience and analogy part of the experiment was also about sulfur addition right

[01:11:05] in 1881 we added sulfur yes we added sulfur in the fermenter but in the baffles we did not

[01:11:15] we added less than we do nowadays and we added added the sulfur in a different way not in liquid form

[01:11:24] just by burning a small piece of sulfur in the in the bachel it make a difference

[01:11:32] you actually developed a whole project in Oregon that then served as a parallel to what you were

[01:11:37] doing in burgundy and you did that much earlier than other producers in burgundy so you were

[01:11:42] sort of a pioneer into moving into Oregon from a European perspective that was the first one

[01:11:49] the first burgundy to develop and estate in in Oregon it was partly by accident but partly by

[01:11:59] passion curiosity and as a challenge this was in 1986 my daughter had graduated as an

[01:12:10] inologist and she wanted to be a trainee here or there and in particular in the United States

[01:12:19] and as we were friends to Bob Mondavi she asked me could you introduce me to Bob I could I go

[01:12:26] there said no problem no problem but among a vis large company you will be a trainee among others

[01:12:34] and I have some friends in Oregon it's a new wine district small companies the family businesses

[01:12:43] I will ask one of them so 1986 I flew with Veronique to Oregon we met David Lett

[01:12:52] and David Utterl Simon two of the pioneers in Oregon and they agreed to have Veronique

[01:12:59] and this was summertime near the harvest and the grapes looked healthy and ripe full of color juicy

[01:13:10] and I thought my god they should make good wines with that and I wish we had the same in in

[01:13:18] burgundy and I said to David other Simon it would be fun to have a piece of land and make wine

[01:13:25] yet see how it compares to burgundy that was it when you're later in June I was at Venexpo the

[01:13:33] phone rang David Lettterl Simon the folks at the harvest I remember what you said and there is

[01:13:39] a nice piece of land on sale would you like to buy it well well let me think for a while

[01:13:46] well this is summer I go on holiday in Oregon when we look at the land there is no urgency no urgency at all

[01:13:55] those days so I started thinking more seriously about it yes it's a challenge yes I'm sure

[01:14:05] it's good for the prestige of Dua if I am right yes it can be profitable and it is so challenging

[01:14:14] to do it so I said okay we purchased the land and it has been a great experience in many ways

[01:14:23] the mistake to make and some people do in new wine districts it's to try and imitate

[01:14:31] copy what is being done in Bordeaux or in burgundy and other than have this approach

[01:14:37] the question should be why do they do it in burgundy how do they do it and why so I definitely wanted

[01:14:45] to grow Pinot Noir that was not the question because I know Pinot Noir but then should it be

[01:14:51] high density or large space between the rows decided kind of compromise one meter 30 apart

[01:15:00] versus one meter in burgundy or three meters in California then I decided to I thought we have

[01:15:08] Philoxéha in burgundy I would not like to have Philoxéha so we will graft the vines

[01:15:15] and the producers said quite you graft it's costly takes time and we have no Philoxéha in organ

[01:15:22] that's that you don't do not have Philoxéha but there is Philoxéha in California and one day I

[01:15:29] don't know when two years three years ten years Philoxéha will be here in Oregon too I don't want

[01:15:35] to run the risk and grafted all my vines and three years later Philoxéha appeared in Oregon

[01:15:44] I so I developed this estate and we started making a good wine I should say very little started

[01:15:51] making a good a good wine I love this investment I love people are charming there they're simple

[01:16:01] they are passionate they're all these families and I learned from their experience

[01:16:09] I would hope I brought some of my burgundy experience to them and help them with developing

[01:16:16] cultivating but I also learned from them for instance green harvest was not the habit in burgundy

[01:16:26] where I brought this habit from Oregon to burgundy and now everyone does the does the same

[01:16:33] and possibly there are other examples one way or the other so exchanges of experience is

[01:16:40] profitable to both parties green harvest was really something that you saw in Oregon and then

[01:16:47] brought back into burgundy yes because they want to realize that the high production is detrimental

[01:16:57] to quality the production the yield depends on the on the vintage it depends on the area one can

[01:17:05] afford to have a higher yield in a burgundy than in a musini that same way that the

[01:17:12] vindication will be slightly different yes it's a difficult decision because how many bunches

[01:17:20] should we leave on each gain should it be six eight ten how many tons per acre should we aim at

[01:17:28] and it would be fairly easy if we were close to the harvest but we have to

[01:17:34] grip thinning end of July so we still don't know we know how many grapes we will have

[01:17:40] but we don't know how large our heavy there will be and there were two tastings that sort of

[01:17:46] catapulted your interest into Oregon reds right yes in 1979 the tasting comparative blind tasting

[01:17:56] between French wines and American wines between burgundy wines and Oregon wines and the American

[01:18:06] wines came first ahead of burgundy so I was curious I thought it's badly organized let's do it

[01:18:12] again with my and only my wines against the ones which are supposed to be the best of Oregon

[01:18:19] and we won but number two was David let Oregon wine so this certainly was at the back of my mind

[01:18:29] when I decided to develop an estate and by the way this tasting in 1979 shows that in a blind

[01:18:40] one pays more attention to the fullness fleshness of the wine than to the elegance complexity

[01:18:50] and and the length this is why in many ways I'm not too much in favor of blind tasting or

[01:18:59] yes comparing wines of the same appellation same area and of different growers then it is

[01:19:09] and I like to compare my wines with others but it has to be done at the same time it's difficult for

[01:19:17] a master of wine who goes in a cellar taste the wine then they come to my cellar and the following

[01:19:25] in another one even with a good memory of the wine of the wine it is difficult to compare and

[01:19:32] try and rank which is the best one the blind tasting one should not be completely blind to hear more

[01:19:41] about those blind tastings that were held in 1979 and 1980 but from the perspective of the

[01:19:47] let family in Oregon I want to bring in here a clip from Jason Let's interview Jason spoke about

[01:19:53] those same two tastings and the ramifications of the results for his family and for the area

[01:20:00] Jason's dad David Lett made the 1975 Pino Noir that plays second in the bone tasting in 1980

[01:20:09] so we have our particular block of grapes it's a tiny block it's only 10 rows

[01:20:15] it is surrounded by other plantings of Pino Noir this is actually compared to the original wines from

[01:20:21] 1965 a little bit of a later planting in 1968 and dad designated that the South Block

[01:20:29] so dad is tasting these barrels in the winery just realizing there's something special about

[01:20:35] these 10 rows that sets them apart from the rows that are planted you know immediately adjacent to

[01:20:39] this and for him it's this eureka moment where I'll use to the conversation about Burgundy where

[01:20:47] you see these hard lines between greatness and average just in the space of a few feet

[01:20:55] and the same seemed to be happening at Irie and so dad designated that wine separately he called it

[01:21:00] the South Block Reserve and he had this kind of crazy short American lady who was selling

[01:21:06] him barrels from Burgundy at the time her name was Becky Wasserman and he gave her some of

[01:21:10] those bottles of South Block and she took them back to France and sat on them for a while and then

[01:21:15] she was invited to be a judge at a wine Olympics that was sponsored by a French food magazine called

[01:21:21] Gomeo and she entered those bottles into the wine Olympics and in the Pino Noir category our

[01:21:31] dinky little tiny plot of 10 vines placed in the top 10 out of a lot of wines from around the world

[01:21:41] including some from Burgundy and it was a startling result but maybe not entirely unpredictable

[01:21:48] because the wines in that Paris tasting the Burgundies were a department store label

[01:21:54] sort of negotiable wines so interestingly and to his credit Robert Drewain restaged the tasting

[01:22:01] the next year and bone with his own wines and the same judges so Becky got to go back and be a judge

[01:22:06] again and in that second tasting the top wine was 59 Shambl Mousignet which scored 70 points

[01:22:15] and the second wine was Irene 1975 South Block which scored 69.8 and then 61 Shambarton

[01:22:23] clotapez with 66 points it was a startling result and it got Irene written about in the New York

[01:22:33] Times it was national and international recognition that there was something going on in Oregon

[01:22:41] so the impact of that press might have been fairly short term you know the sort of the three-month

[01:22:48] period of excitement and then back to the grind again except that we suddenly started like experiencing

[01:22:55] this wave of curiosity from Burgundy growers from Burgundy coming here to visit in the early 80s

[01:23:03] including and especially Robert Drewain and his daughter Verneak Verneak came and worked for us

[01:23:08] for a harvest in 1986 and also with Adlesheim and Bethel Heights and then in 1987 I stayed with the

[01:23:16] Drewains and got the opportunity to work in their cellar and actually while I was there

[01:23:21] Robert told me that they had finalized purchase on some land just right up the hill for my parents

[01:23:27] and I have to say that the effect of those tastings in Paris and bone the resonance

[01:23:34] the long standing positive result of that was not the press accolades it was the presence of the

[01:23:42] Drewain family who brought so much credibility to what we were doing here

[01:23:47] I want to take a moment here to emphasize the similarities in the style and approach behind

[01:23:52] David Letzwein from Oregon and the Drewain wines especially back in the period of the 1970s and 80s

[01:24:00] remember what Robert Drewain mentioned earlier in this interview about the approach to Pinoenoware

[01:24:05] at Drewain in Burgundy in terms of less extraction more elegance lighter color and more stability

[01:24:12] and then listen here to how Jason Letz sums up his dad's mindset at the iRiviniard at that time

[01:24:20] he always felt like there was a real kind of lack of sophistication in Americans about understanding

[01:24:25] what Pinoenoware is you know we judge books by the cover for better or worse and we judge Pino

[01:24:31] by the color and he felt like that was definitely for the worst you know he said that in Pinoenoware

[01:24:37] color and flavor exist in an inverse ratio which means his color goes up flavor goes down

[01:24:44] that's an interesting thing to say because if you're trying to extract color from Pinoenoware

[01:24:50] the best way to do it is by raising the temperature of the fermentation

[01:24:53] and if you've made soup you know that the best time to throw in the herbs isn't when you start

[01:24:58] making the soup but right at the end because those volatil aromatics can get boiled off by the heat

[01:25:04] of fermentation and so he liked short cool fermentations that didn't lock in a lot of color

[01:25:09] but what color there was was very stable you know you won't see a lot of sediment at the bottom

[01:25:15] of an old bottle of ire because the color that went into the bottle was there to stay

[01:25:19] perhaps this similar sensibility and approach to Pinoenoware influenced Robert Draughan's decision

[01:25:26] to buy vineyard land near iree in the dundee hills if you look back at the results of the 1979

[01:25:34] gomio tasting in Paris it wouldn't necessarily follow that the iree Pinoenoware was the one you'd

[01:25:42] want to pursue the iree placed in the top 10 of that tasting for sure but the number three wine

[01:25:49] much higher up in the results than the iree was a 1975 Pinoenoware from Hoffman Mountain Ranch in

[01:25:55] California I personally often think of a bigger darker style of Pinoenoware as becoming popular

[01:26:01] with Americans later like in the 1990s but as Steve Dorner of Christen vineyard said in his interview

[01:26:08] even back in the late 1970s there was a real fashion for a bigger style of Pinoenoware and Hoffman

[01:26:15] Mountain Ranch Pinoenoware was a prime example of that 78 there was not that many people in the game

[01:26:23] and the style that was favored I think were the ones that were the big even that and it was

[01:26:29] bigger style you know Santa Cruz mountain vineyard Hoffman Mountain Ranch you know they had a lot

[01:26:35] out call a lot of color and that was kind of hard to achieve with Pinoenoware so they thought

[01:26:40] that was good it's worth proposing that it wasn't so much the differences but rather the stylistic

[01:26:47] similarities between the iree Pinoenoware of that period and the Dron burgundis that prompted

[01:26:53] Robert Dron to make his first vineyard purchase in Oregon although I can imagine that Robert

[01:26:59] might disagree with that assertion we'll be back with more from Robert Dron right after this

[01:27:07] one of the first things I learned doing harvest in California is where to buy wine and that

[01:27:14] is bottl barn classic wines natural wines cult wines up and coming producers excellent

[01:27:20] vintage hard source bottles and daily drinkers bottl barn has them all and bottl barn has them all

[01:27:27] for great prices honestly I really don't know how they do it I've seen pricing from bottl barn

[01:27:34] for some fancy wines that is several hundred dollars less than I would have expected and I've

[01:27:40] also seen wines for under 30 bucks that I would have expected to have been significantly more than

[01:27:45] that plus when I get my wine it's in perfect condition that's why I do it all the best wine

[01:27:51] makers in California do I shop at bottl barn try for yourself use the promo code vno15 for 15% off

[01:28:00] your first order at bottl barn dot com that's vino15 for 15% off your first order at bottl barn dot com

[01:28:13] later the Dron company would purchase even more land in Oregon and really kind of double down on

[01:28:17] that investment which was large to begin with and then became even larger later and so in that

[01:28:23] period of time what did you see is the development of Oregon wine from your perspective

[01:28:28] as of all in in the 80s most Oregon wines were technically poor wines that didn't know how to make

[01:28:37] wines they had good grapes when tasting them very often I would say oh the wine could have been

[01:28:43] good but it's sad that it is like this or like that well obviously this has changed a lot

[01:28:50] all the growers now have the technical knowledge and all the wines are technically good

[01:28:56] I think Oregon really deserves the repute it has gained for pinot noir and chardonnay it's easier

[01:29:04] with chardonnay because chardonnay it's easy to make a chardonnay wine the world around it has

[01:29:10] it has more less alcohol it's more less frizziness but with pinot noir in particular it is different

[01:29:20] Oregon has a good climate cool nights so there is enough finesse but one still has to discover

[01:29:29] which are the best areas if they are best areas in in Oregon I have the experience that

[01:29:38] some years ago very happy with the success of DDO Domain Bruin Oregon I decided to purchase

[01:29:47] another estate which was on sale this we did in 2014 it's 30 miles south of the other estate

[01:30:00] the first estate is in the Dundee Hills the second is in the Amity Eola Hills the soil is slightly

[01:30:09] different and the wines are different and I'm happy that they are different in the northern part

[01:30:16] the wines is soft rather light elegant in the southern part of Hosorok is the name of the estate

[01:30:26] the wine has more color little more structure not more complexity but it is different

[01:30:32] so over the years I'm sure Oregon will gradually develop the knowledge of the different

[01:30:39] areas best areas and how to make the wine of these areas with their things that surprised you

[01:30:45] about growing grapes in Oregon that you hadn't realized until you started your own projects there

[01:30:50] in many ways it's easier to cultivate in Oregon than in Bergenny because the weather is the

[01:30:57] profile of the weather is more consistent it rains a lot in winter but the summer it is fairly dry

[01:31:05] compared to Bergenny so it's easier to have organic viticulture in Oregon than in Bergenny

[01:31:15] less spring I wouldn't say it's easy but less but try to it is me or less diseases so it's easier

[01:31:25] to have healthy grapes it means that the wines are fruity have generally more color

[01:31:33] possible little more structure than Bergenny wines when it comes to Bergenny well you know

[01:31:39] where my heart is so I won't give you the precise answer you mentioned organic farming in the

[01:31:46] Oregon context but that became increasingly a concern of yours in the Bergenny context as well right

[01:31:53] I'm very happy and I may have explained that have four children the oldest Philippe

[01:31:59] passionate with wine started guiding our Bergenny estate in 1988 and from the start

[01:32:08] it was convinced that we should we should try and use only natural products less chemicals

[01:32:16] and completely agreed with his approach thinking maybe it's more costly more risky

[01:32:24] but it's natural it's it's it's natural so and maybe the quality of the wine will be even better

[01:32:31] so starting 88 and then we're very few people in Bergenny we started developing organic viticulture

[01:32:39] the good producers and Claude Le Flèvre, Humie, Merceau, La Fong, many producers

[01:32:51] the difference with the past in the past all these producers will never meet now they exchange

[01:32:57] your ideas Philippe is a friend of all these good producers so they together exchange your

[01:33:05] experience on organic viticulture and we are we are happy with the result I cannot confirm

[01:33:14] that the wine is better for that I would say that naturally the yield is lower maybe this is good

[01:33:22] for the quality I know it is more risky I know in jabley we also have organic viticulture a few years

[01:33:32] ago the there was so much pressure of mil you and argym that we had to abandon organic viticulture

[01:33:41] and we know when we abandon then for quite a few years we cannot say it is organic viticulture

[01:33:47] anymore because it has to be conducted that way for at least three years before one can be

[01:33:55] rated as organic viticulture I think there have been changes that Philippe has introduced

[01:34:01] in that you've introduced as well in your respective careers but what would be in general the vineyard

[01:34:06] work for the cotor vineyards were drawn in terms of row spacing rootstock and vine material what's

[01:34:14] normal these days when it comes to spacing we follow the tradition it's one meter apart

[01:34:22] when it comes to clones it's a combination of selected clones and sometimes selected root

[01:34:31] stocks or selected clones of root stocks one can go that far organic viticulture and even we

[01:34:40] experiment with biodynamic sometimes a controversy with Philippe is very much in favor of it I'm

[01:34:49] not sure that it is good but anyway it's good to experiment and again the risk is only a financial

[01:34:58] so it's worth experimenting and certainly it doesn't damage nature so we have to think of the

[01:35:04] of the future do you propagate from the bone chloramuse do you take vines from chloramuse and propagate

[01:35:12] them into other vineyards yes you're right that something and it is important we over the years

[01:35:19] we have maintained our own nursery we select vines from our old vines we go in the vineyards

[01:35:27] and we mark the vines which we think are healthy and they look particularly nice and nice bunches

[01:35:35] not too large not too small and so on and we try and multiply these so that's possibly one thing

[01:35:45] which is different from other growers and for this selection when I think of the chloramuse

[01:35:52] we maintain one chardonnay vineyard which was planted in 1935 so the gain the idea is to

[01:36:01] maintain the style the tapacity of the chloramuse and not deviate from it and was there a history

[01:36:11] of co-fermenting pinobureau with the red we maintain in our vineyards some pinogri the pinogri

[01:36:20] is a pino with a very little color but it was always pinogri in the old vineyards because it

[01:36:28] brings more sugar content it has a lower acidity level and in the very old days the vines

[01:36:38] of bigny at a lot of structure were rather low in alcohol and so this would help compensate

[01:36:47] so by tradition we have some white some pinogri in our clonymuse just that wine it wouldn't be

[01:36:57] the gruyotter no okay just want to make sure so you're somebody that has a real expert knowledge of

[01:37:03] old ventages from the thirties and the forties and the fifties and bergany from personal experience

[01:37:10] and so I was wondering if we could touch on some of those ventages it's true I'm fortunate

[01:37:16] to have a starting my experience with the wines of the itself 1934-35 after the war the wines

[01:37:27] we were tasting and again many of the Romani-Conte area were the 1935-1938 it's on yes 1938 I had

[01:37:39] great wines of 1938 the lessons I learned remember 1937 for instance a very good vintage but my

[01:37:50] father took it as an example of a wine the wines didn't have much charm when they were young

[01:37:58] there had a lot of tenin and my father said one has to be careful it's the type of vintage

[01:38:06] wondering drinks it when it is young one says oh it's wet enough five years five years later same

[01:38:12] thing it's improved not good enough yet ten years 20 years later maybe the wine will be gone

[01:38:21] and will never have been really a perfect unpleasant so such a lesson I applied I remember to 1976

[01:38:34] some ways to 1980s three in other words I thought aha 1976 a great vintage a lot of tenin not much

[01:38:46] charm not much fruitiness one should not keep it too long in the fermenter not too long in wood

[01:38:54] and one should find it a little more than usual and that what a thing I was successful doing so

[01:39:02] Vintage's are always a lesson not that long ago I had a latash 1944 44 is considered a poor vintage

[01:39:14] low in alcohol very light in every way and the wine was so complex so elegant again in from

[01:39:23] the beginning to the end and lasting long long time in so the finesse at its best

[01:39:33] to me I'm fortunate to be exposed to great wines great vintages so I can be interested with a

[01:39:41] wine because it is good because it is great but when there is something to talk about to think

[01:39:47] that is where it is interesting when we taste the wines when I taste wines particularly with

[01:39:54] Veronique as she is in charge of maintaining the style we love to exchange our taste our experience

[01:40:04] and try even now to explain in which way I prefer when vintage to another there are some

[01:40:12] vintages where practically all wines are good I think I could name 1959 possibly 1989

[01:40:23] 1985 1978 these are great vintages more often in a given vintage a good or bad it depends on the producer

[01:40:36] in a good vintage you can have poor wines in a great vintage superb vintages to me when opening

[01:40:46] a bottle of an old wine it's not only the quality of the wine is the remembrance of what happened

[01:40:55] in this particular year either in daily life or political event it's the

[01:41:03] fatigue culture particularly of the wines I produced before let's say 1988 before my son

[01:41:13] stepped in then I remember really all the details of the frost of diseases and so on

[01:41:20] so when we are in Burgundy we live with wine and opening a bottle is not just

[01:41:28] appreciating quality particular vintages that have stood out for me amongst your wines were 83 and

[01:41:34] 85 do you have particular memories of those two there were not that many great vintages in the 80s

[01:41:41] starting with let's say with the 1960 again I would mention this 61 62 69 78 85 89 90

[01:41:57] well it's obviously when I think of all these vintages let's just think of 1993

[01:42:06] nothing the reputation is not great and yet whenever I taste at least our wines maybe we were

[01:42:12] particularly successful but all of them are just just delicious now so 2003 is also on the other

[01:42:24] light side but the wines are typical Burgundy so difficult to speak of a vintage or to a

[01:42:33] great vintage ah when I think of vintages obviously I have to go back to the past my parents

[01:42:44] Boris Dwarham they were married in 1911 a great apparently great great vintage so as was usual

[01:42:53] they led a few bottles aside and I still have some 1911 and it is just superb

[01:43:01] I also I'm fortunate to have few bottles I think I now have two bottles left of 1856

[01:43:10] Musini the first one was Musini 1911 yet next one was Musini 1856

[01:43:18] some ten years ago we had a special private family meeting and I thought we would have

[01:43:26] we would have these two wines 1856 I was told was not a great vintage but a decent good vintage

[01:43:35] the wine was it had not be the cork I don't think the cork had been changed

[01:43:42] the wine the wine was very light in color very light at an excellent bouquet which faded very quickly

[01:43:52] in the glass and on on on the palate but think of it a wine which is 150 years old it shows that

[01:44:00] here again the complexity the essence of the wine is at its best and it does mean we should wait

[01:44:08] that long to drink all the wines we produce now it is commercially it would be difficult

[01:44:14] but speaking of the age of the wines for obvious commercial reasons financial reasons

[01:44:21] wines are sold and drank very young now it is it explains that one the consumer

[01:44:28] and us as producers we look for the charm and the fruitiness of the wine

[01:44:35] but it's only with age that the complexity would come if the wine is of a good origin

[01:44:43] age of wine which is 10 20 30 years old sometimes this disappointing it is oxidized

[01:44:51] maybe it has not been well kept but when it is still decent it's so so interesting so fascinating

[01:45:02] are there things in your career that turned out differently than you would have expected when

[01:45:07] you first got started when I think of Birgenny progress definitely progress going up then backwards

[01:45:16] changes on has to be careful with new discoveries on has to experiment what is new one day

[01:45:27] would be part of tradition if it is something good this is why I'm happy when I am with my children

[01:45:36] with Philippine vineyard and he has a problem he would say what would you have done

[01:45:42] so chose that combination of tradition and experience is the secret to progressing

[01:45:51] and I think of my parents I think I was very fortunate very fortunate to be trained by my father

[01:45:58] Robert drawn has seen a career that he feels in hindsight was mostly quite lucky in the history of

[01:46:04] Birgenny thank you very much for being here today well thank you I'm happy if good best on

[01:46:08] some of my love of Birgenny thank you Robert drawn of Mason Joseph drawn in Birgenny in France

[01:46:19] all drink to that is hosted and produced by myself levee Dalton Aaron Scala has contributed

[01:46:24] original pieces editorial assistance has been provided by bill kimsey the show music was

[01:46:30] performed and composed by raw mousse and Thomas Bartlett show artwork by el lisha to noyan t-shirt

[01:46:37] sweatshirts coffee mugs and so much more including show stickers notebooks and even gift wrap are

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[01:47:12] you for listening

[01:47:30] some of the questions and commentary in this episode wouldn't have been possible without

[01:47:35] the resources on burgundy that were provided by clive coats during his lifetime and by jasper

[01:47:40] morris still today i would recommend either of those authors to you if you'd like to know more about

[01:47:46] the drawn wines from burgundy i also want to cite the work of nil de holkauer who has written

[01:47:52] about the nineteen eighty tasting and bone for both wine searcher dot com and for the journal

[01:47:57] of wine economics further there's an entertaining read about the gomiyo tasting written by terry

[01:48:03] robots and published in the new york times in october of nineteen seventy nine

[01:48:10] and i remember in the old days at home we would always keep the sediment and this would be used

[01:48:18] to make this kokova a red wine source it's red with wine sauce made with sediment how many

[01:48:25] county sediment is excellent